A question for those in the UK who oppose Gun rights

[Goon_mog]

I have a question for those whom are largely pro gun control, ie prefer strict restrictions on the possession and use of firearms, and the context of this will be with the USA, although i want ze brits, whom are usually the lads who are most opposed to firearms rights to be participators.

There are about 360 million firearms within the USA, I want you without looking at any statistics guess how many of these guns are used per day in violent murders, and to guess how many gun murders there are in the usa per day, keep in mind theres about 330 million ish americans.
Post your guess, and be honest too.
Once you guessed, pop open this spoiler

The number of Americans who die per day due to guns is about 32, absolutely tiny, barely even registering. Considering how many political resources are poured into us politics over guns, and they are not actually significant at all, the deaths due to alcohol and drugs monstrously dwarf guns for example, that the whole gun control debate is a distraction? Less then 0.6% of deaths, in general in the usa are down to gun murders.

[oli]

I’m gonna go ahead and guess that there is 1 death per 100,000 people, seeing as it’s more like 0.1 in the UK. 330,000,000 / 100,000 = 3300, 3300 / 365 = 9. I’d guess 9 people die every day from being shot.

32

lol

After doing some research, your stats seem a little low (do you have a source?), but it doesn’t really matter. In the UK it is about the same number per year, America’s gun-related death rate is like 60 times higher than ours, they sit among third world nations when compared to the rest of the world and are miles away from any other first world nation. In Chicago, more people have been killed by guns since 2001 than in the whole of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars combined. In the UK, nobody get’s killed by guns because nobody has any guns. There is no reason to bring them into use, it would have a wholly negative impact.

[anon81256995]

but it doesn’t really matter. In the UK it is about the same number per year

Out of curiosity, how does it compare if you take the difference of population (320 million vs. 65 million) into account?

[Goon_mog]

^ pro gun [quote=“oli, post:2, topic:110267”]
After doing some research, your stats seem a little low (do you have a source?),
[/quote]

I do have a source http://www.bradycampaign.org/key-gun-violence-statistics , and if need be i can cite FBI statistics for you.

In the UK, nobody get’s killed by guns because nobody has any guns. There is no reason to bring them into use, it would have a wholly negative impact.

Ok, but people are still killed by knifes, cars and other forms of attack, besides as i said gun murders makes up 0.6% of deaths in the usa, it doesnt even register compared to most other causes of death.
Secondly civil liberties argument, because i know you as a fellow libertarian will heed it, if its nearly inconsequential on the large scale of going ons in society for a liberty to occur (which is the case with guns, more people die to car accidents then guns in the usa for example) then it is unjust to rob people of the means of self defense and their subsequent firearms. Which is what the UK law does, We dont ban things in a free society that barely register in causing deaths at the cost of everyones freedoms.

Citations for the gun homicides rate vs rest

FastStats

https://everytownresearch.org/gun-violence-by-the-numbers/#YearlyGunMurders

EDIT your example of Chicago is a terrible one as well, Chicago practices some of the strictest gun control in the usa, to the point were violated the 2nd amendment multiple times, which is fairly difficult to do considering the current supreme court precedent basically allowing states free reign over how guns are to be regulated.

[anon45184480]

but people are still killed by knifes

Most types of non-kitchen knives are banned here

[Goon_mog]

Most types of non-kitchen knives are banned here

And how well does that work out lol?

[anon81256995]

So are you basically saying that if guns are too unsafe, cars should also be banned?

[Goon_mog]

gun-related death rate is like 60 times higher than ours,

Why is this an argument, Why are you seperating gun deaths from non gun deaths, not just you but anti gun lobbyists in general do this, it is sophistry ,

[TheRedcoat]

Kitchen knives require ID to purchase.

Knives over a certain length, and certain type are prohibited. Others are regulated and cant be carried without due cause.

You can still buy scalpels, Swiss army knives, etc you just need to have a reason to have them on your person - carpet fitter with a Stanley knife is OK as long as he’s in his work wear and can prove he is either on his way or returning from a job.

[notspish]

not from the UK so not gonna throw my views in here, but why not compare it to Switzerland, Canada, Sweden, Norway, Germany, or any other western country? the US is an outlier, in terms of gun stuff

[anon45184480]

And how well does that work out lol?

P sure knife crime as a whole has been going down almost consistently (with the except of one or two outliers) and the rate of deaths per violent attack has also gone down.

[Goon_mog]

Kitchen knives require ID to purchase.

Guns in general require ID and background check to purchase in the usa.

Knives over a certain length, and certain type are prohibited. Others are regulated and cant be carried without due cause.

A 3 inch knife is still very much a lethal weapon, in fact a knife is one of the few weapons were its length is irrelevant to its lethality. Besides this hasnt even begun to go into carrying the weaponry in public or restrictions on it, this is merely ownership at the moment.

[Goon_mog]

P sure knife crime as a whole has been going down almost consistently (with the except of one or two outliers) and the rate of deaths per violent attack has also gone down.

And before i research this, is this apart of an overall trend that was occurring previously, or were the knife crimes anomic relative to historical precedent regarding knife crime? And that it wasnt measures like searching people in the streets for example that caused it?

[oli]

Out of curiosity, how does it compare if you take the difference of population (320 million vs. 65 million) into account?

Ok, but people are still killed by knifes, cars and other forms of attack[/quote]

Of course, homicide is a universal problem, but in the UK our homicide rate is ridiculously smaller than in the USA, and knife crime rates are actually similar (although have shot up over the last couple of years due to our shitty tory government). Just like with gun-related deaths, when their homicide rate is compared to other countries the USA sits above third world countries like Thailand, Iran and Kyrgyzstan, whilst the UK sits way down low with Sweden, Portugal and Germany. Guns are the reason so many people kill each other in the USA, when you don’t have a powerful firearm it is much harder to murder another human being.

besides as i said gun murders makes up 0.6% of deaths in the usa

Of deaths yeah, but more than 60% of all homicides.

Secondly civil liberties argument, because i know you as a fellow libertarian will heed it, if its nearly inconsequential on the large scale of going ons in society for a liberty to occur (which is the case with guns, more people die to car accidents then guns in the usa for example) then it is unjust to rob people of the means of self defense and their subsequent firearms. Which is what the UK law does, We dont ban things in a free society that barely register in causing deaths at the cost of everyones freedo

It’s a pointless civil liberty. It gives you the freedom to kill another human being, which isn’t a good freedom to give people. I prefer the positive liberty I have in the UK due to gun laws, the freedom not to walk down the road without being scared that someone might shoot me. I can understand why this was justified in the post-colonial era, where homesteaders and farmers had an important duty to constrain their government and preserve their civil liberties with force if necessary. We don’t live in those times anymore now, nobody is going to start a revolution if taxes are too high, guns are confined to being either an enthusiast’s hobby and a weapon for violent thugs.

[oli]

EDIT your example of Chicago is a terrible one as well, Chicago practices some of the strictest gun control in the usa, to the point were violated the 2nd amendment multiple times, which is fairly difficult to do considering the current supreme court precedent basically allowing states free reign over how guns are to be regulated.

Clearly the only answer is just to ban guns then.

[oli]

And how well does that work out lol?

Basically you can’t carry around a sword or a machete (or basically anything other than a small, foldable, Swiss Army Knife), unless you are a machete collector or something and presumably have to own a license and keep it locked up. There is no reason to allow butterfly knives and flick knives, they are only used to kill people.

[anon81256995]

What even is that in the U.K.? 0.2?

[Goon_mog]

It’s a pointless civil liberty. It gives you the freedom to kill another human being, which isn’t a good freedom to give people. I prefer the positive liberty I have in the UK due to gun laws, the freedom not to walk down the road without being scared that someone might shoot me.

Actually there is nothing stoping anyone shooting you in the uk, its just less likely they will choose that as the murder weopon, your freedom to not be scared by firearms owners is not justified in my freedom of self defence being severely weakened if not outright stripped from me, which one sounds better? Your feelings or an actual tangible right?

Some more statistics for you, the rate of crime in the usa has nothing to do with its guns, in fact its the overall trend in the usa that violent crime, including gun crime is down over all. And you said the crime wave was because of the tories (of whom took office after the blunders of labor?)

[TheRedcoat]

Kitchen knives require ID to purchase.

Guns in general require ID and background check to purchase in the usa.

‘In general’, this is assuming you are purchasing from a legal firearms dealer. Between private individuals in some states no background check is required.

A 3 inch knife is still very much a lethal weapon, in fact a knife is one of the few weapons were its length is irrelevant to its lethality. Besides this hasnt even begun to go into carrying the weaponry in public or restrictions on it, this is merely ownership at the moment.

The list of banned items is quite exhaustive - Gov list

I am quite aware that a blade of any size could be lethal, puncture certain arteries and its curtains in 3 minutes. The major difference between firearms and knives is that with a knife I cant stand 500m away and kill 30 people in an instant. I am exceptionally limited in my killing capacity.

[Goon_mog]

Between private individuals in some states no background check is required.

That is an issue between said states, also does the uk ban private selling of knives in the same context?

The major difference between firearms and knives is that with a knife I cant stand 500m away and kill 30 people in an instant.

Are you being hyperbolic with this statement, because if not you are demonstrating severe ignorance about guns in the usa. [quote=“TheRedcoat, post:19, topic:110267”]
I am exceptionally limited in my killing capacity.
[/quote]

Which is why you rent a truck instead.