Anyone still think Jeremy Corbyn should be Labour Leader?


#41

Sure, just as a large segment of those Labour voters are going to be Blairites and a number of Liberal Democrats are going to be center-right. All-in-all, it quite possibly balances itself out. Like I said though, in no way is that data representative of the true diversity of UK political opinions. There’s a wide range of factors that go into deciding a person’s position of the Left-Right political spectrum (a concept which I think is flawed anyway), and although the way someone voted is a good indicator it doesn’t always show the full picture.

I’m inclined to agree nowadays due to the breakdown of both class and partisan affiliation. I think the debate really is about whether or not the British public see ‘Left’ or ‘Right’ ideas as more competent than others, rather than identifying specifically with the Left or Right wing themselves. That said, I think that a large segment of the population probably do view things in terms of Right or Left rather than just going for competency, and their opinions should be factored in, but overall you’re right. I’m only using the data to blow his claim out of the water that an individual’s decision to join a party somehow represents the political makeup of wider society.

As I said, the data is flawed, just as yours, but it represents a far wider segment of the population than yours. (To be honest, represents is probably the wrong word to use given the different concerns that people put into voting.)

Your own data is far less representative of the population than the data from the GE too.


#42

As I said originally, whether it is representative or not, it shows that the left are much more active and likely to fight and defend the left. It is inevitable that the left will eventually win the battle as they are much more resolved to put up a fight against what they know is wrong!!!

(Apologies about cutting off of quotes, it’s hard to quote from an iPad)


#43

No, not really. Them being ‘more active’ doesn’t mean that they’re actually convincing people, nor is partisan membership a fully inclusive look at how active the Left or Right wing are in this country.


#44

Corbyn is growing on me a bit. I still couldn’t bring myself to vote for him in a general election, but I heavily respect how he has conducted himself in a (largely) unjustified media storm. The whole political climate in the UK at the minute is toxic. It feels like a bit of a race to the bottom, rather than the top. It’s all mudslinging and no promise.


#45

I’d say that part of that is because of the fact that Corbyn is the leader of the Labour Party. Obviously the guy doesn’t intentionally mean to cause it, but him being the leader of the Labour Party creates an environment where the Conservatives feel as though they can do anything and still win in 2020. That allows them to just tear the shit out of each other over Europe, whilst Labour continues to have an internal debate about its future.

I don’t mind Corbyn as a person. He’s an honest politician with a decent sense of integrity, but he’s a poor party leader irrespective of whether or not that’s his fault, the ‘media’s’ fault or anyone else’s fault.


#46

In what way is he a ‘poor leader’? No one has ever expanded this any further, they leave it at this sweeping statement. I’m genuinely interested to know people’s reasoning.


#47

No it’s just that normal people don’t really have a need to join a political party and only those who are the poorest feel a need to waste their tax-paid benefit money to join the political party that promises them to increase their benefit money.


#48

The fact that he is incapable of providing a strong front through which to act as a credible opposition to the incumbent government, perhaps? That’s the point of having an opposition, and – as flawed as he was – I’ll take my hat off to Miliband for actually being a capable opposition leader.

Or perhaps the fact that he has little appeal outside of traditional Labour voters, and that – irrespective of whether or not he’s causing it – there’s a rift between Corbyn and the more moderate wing of the party which shows obvious party disunity within Westminster?

Don’t get me wrong, the Conservatives are also disunited currently and that’s something I hope will be addressed in the next year or so, but that doesn’t excuse Labour either.


#49

I am pretty sure that my Tory Party Membership fee is £15 a year (I get a discounted rate) and the standard rate is £25 a year, with an option for a £5 under-23’s and £1 ‘friend’ rate. Now lets actually compare apples with apples, The standard monthly rate for Tory membership is £2.06, Labour its £3.92. Over a year, paid monthly, Tory membership costs £24.72, Labour over the same time is actually £47.04. This of course is for full standard membership.

Labour does have a multitude of other options such as if your a union member, a card carrying student, out of work ect and even varying youth prices. The £1 membership only applies if if your between 14-19. After that if your not a card carrying student for a young person its £12 a year - £7 more expensive than the Tories flat rate of £5.

Ive taken all these costs from the respective parties websites, and I cant seem to find where you get this absurd notion that Tory membership fee is £60. And in fact being a standard non discounted Tory member is cheaper than being a Labour party member.


#50

I don’t see how Corbyn could be seen as a non pragmatist. Although I would understand how Corbyn has divided the party, I would hardly say it’s his fault. If only Blairites could stop trying the flip the Party over, then maybe we could see some unity.


#51

He’s driven by ideology not pragmatism. Talking about legalising prostitution, nuclear weapons etc. are keep examples of not being pragmatic.

Both sides are as bad as each other. Blairites shouldn’t be plotting a coup, but Corbynites shouldn’t be attempting to purge the party of Blairites or referring to vast swathes of the party as ‘red Tories’.


#52

but for me he shows the very essence of the party so he should stay or we should find some one like him.


#53

I am a member of labour. I do not claim any sort of benefits. I work for my money.

What you have just said is a hideous stereotype and the kind of absolute bull that you would find printed in the Daily Mail. You are suggesting in that comment (whether directly or not) that the poor are intentionally staying on benefits and that all the poor want is to increase benefits and to never work. What a load of absolute crap.

You have suggested that those on benefits and those who join political parties are not “normal”. Well let me tell you this: people on benefits are often (don’t get me wrong, not always) a victim of circumstances and the mere fact that you have called them abnormal is disgusting. Members of political parties are people who feel so strongly that something is wrong with the world they are willing to go out and try and change it. They are people who stand up to people like you who are evidently ignorant to the struggles of “abnormal people”. May be the poorest who happen to be on benefits join political parties such as labour because they stand up for people like them who are victims of circumstance and Tory austerity.

People like YOU are the reason the left wing will prevail. You disgust me you right wing, pompous, stuck up, ignorant, snob.


#54

This is where I get my information from. I have never looked up the costs of joining the Tory party because I would rather defecate in my hands and clap.


#55

I personally think he is doing this. He could be providing better and more immediate opposition p, don’t get me wrong but this will come with experience. Aomde the election at PMQs he has addressed issues that people have sent to him: this is as good as opposition gets is it not, voicing the opinions of Bill from Doncaster and Bob from Newport and Jenny from Leicester to David Cameron. This is effective opposition.

Wrong again. Since he became leader (sorry to return to unreliable membership) but membership nearly (if not did) doubled (I can’t find the exact numbers at the moment).


#56

I’ll concede that I really should have levelled it at both you and @Cameronism.

However your reason for being ignorant and accepting what someone has told you without question, is frankly moronic and lazy. I aint a Labour supporter but instead of buying the BS that all labour membership is £1 I went over to the Labour party page and looked. Just because you don’t like a political group doesn’t mean that is you visit their page you’ll lose your red labour card and be cast from the party. Likewise I aint a leftie however it doesn’t stop me picking up various leftie sources to get another angle on a news story to enhance my knowledge.

I would advise that you start wearing gloves if you intend of defecate on your own hands, however it will make your argument a lot better.

Now @Cameronism where does this £60 figure come from or have you pulled it from your arse?


#57

His PMQs are treated as a joke, and in no way is he effectively scrutinising the Conservative government or holding them to account. Miliband, for all his flaws, kept the Coalition on their toes and actually managed to defeat the government on several leading issues such as Syria. The Labour Party are not performing their role as HM’s Opposition to the same standard that they were in the last parliament. In fact, government U-turns and defeats in this parliament are stemming from internal conflicts rather than from the Labour Party’s external pressure.

Voicing “the opinions of Bill from Doncaster and Bob from Newport and Jenny from Leicester” is not effective opposition. It’s a joke of a way to conduct PMQs that offers no rigorous scrutiny of the government’s actions. HM’s Opposition is supposed to be a government-in-waiting, not the voicebox of Pat from down the road. Sure, they express genuine grievances, but the way in which Corbyn presents them simply undermines his entire point.

Membership has no baring on electoral performance. In fact, many of the individuals who support Corbyn and joined in order to vote for him and/or participate in a Corbyn-led Labour were most likely either Labour supporters or Green supporters anyway, and have joined simply because Labour is now more in line with their views. I doubt that it represents an increase in the appeal of the Labour Party nationwide.

The 2015 General Election reduced Labour’s share of constituencies back into its electoral heartlands (with the obvious exception of Scotland), meaning that in order for it to make gains in 2020, it needs to appeal to the voters of marginal constituencies outside of Labour’s strongholds. Those voters, funnily enough, are the ones who are turned off by the sort of policies and tactics of Old Labour. Labour is talking to itself with the kind of policies it’s advocating at the moment. You have very little chance of winning over the constituencies that you actually need to win in order to succeed in a general election, and on top of that UKIP is eating into your vote in your heartlands – which could provide potential openings for the Conservatives when combined with the upcoming constituency boundary changes. I’ve been saying this from the very beginning, and warned against an ‘Old Labour style’ leader for the Labour Party long before Corbyn was even suggested as a possible leader.

I’m willing to go into this in more depth if you like, although I’ll have to do it tomorrow when I’m not tired.


#58

Hahahaha what a fucking beautiful rant by a politically irrelevant and outdated person.

Go wank over Stalin and leave the neoconservative consensus alone, good luck picking up the puzzle pieces after Labour is decimated in 2020 to it’s very core of ghetto urban areas, and good luck choosing a leader which can take those areas back from UKIP/LDems/Tories.


#59

rl hearsay, looks like the annual figure is 2(0/5)

probably asked a person who was there 3 years, although the price went down since cameron came in but i can’t find historical prices

yeah if you went to the labour page you would see it costs 1 pound so stop BSing. corbyn’s appeal and the subsequent “boom” in membership is almost entirely down to young people and trade unionists, all of which pay 1 pound. if you refuse to acknowledge this then this conversation really doesn’t have much point.

“Likewise I aint a leftie however it doesn’t stop me picking up various leftie sources to get another angle on a news story to enhance my knowledge.”

i often use left wing sources (look on my thread history, 60%+ is guardian links) but that doesn’t mean that the end destination of a left-wing newspaper is also coincidentally used in the end process of excretion.


#60

Surely to God the job of the Government, the opposition and any party is to listen and consider the “voice box of Pat”. Pat is the man who put his MP where he is and it is his MPs job to listen and bring forward his views. Therefore, how better to scrutinise policy than to bring forward real people’s views. I 100% agree Labour could be doing more, a lot more: they have not been as effective as they could be but they are not ineffective.

Sound advise, it has been noted.