Can you accept that Man is greater than God?


#122

“5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.” I prefer the KJ Bible. It’s a metaphoric peripheral allegory of what God said to Eve. But the mainstream Adam and Eve story is oversimplified and extremely lacking in comparison to the further texts that exist.

And if we had no ability to be influenced toward evil then we wouldn’t have free will. See the natural man is an enemy of God and always has been. We are lower, weaker life forms than him. Many have long asked if God is all good and powerful why doesn’t he stop all evil? I will confess I quote a few lines I once heard from an associate of mine on the subject in the following statements who I feel explained it well.

I think he is able but not willing yet. The funny thing is people ask this question and think God getting rid of evil would be great; and it would right? Well if God got rid of evil why wouldn’t he start with us? Are we not evil? Do we not commit evil acts everyday? Interesting. To answer this question we really need to understand what evil is in a theological context with an all loving, omnipotent, and powerful God.

Some view evil as that it is a disorder in the right order of free will. God created creatures in the popular Christian view, or in my view, we are his literal spiritual offspring… with a free will (humans) that is properly oriented to God as the ultimate standard for good.

So when people use their free will to search for good outside of God we find the disorder of free will which is evil. I would raise the point that evil does not have a positive ontological status. That would require it to be created by God. Rather evil is a privation of right order in the design of free will. An illustration of this in physics is hot and cold. Cold is by definition the absence of heat. Cold is a privation of heat. This is a semi boethian concept of evil that has grown to be accepted by many these days.

That does not mean that cold is illusory because if we walk outside on a winter day we know how real this privation is. However, cold has no positive ontological status which would require it to be created. Just as evil is the privation of good and has no positive ontological status; which would require for it to be created. So God did not create evil but instead, he made free will that resulted in evil. So why would he create free will or not stop it? This is because God is a God of love. And for love to exist choice has to be real. He did not want robots that follow him unconsciously but he wanted people to choose to love him if they wished to grow and fulfill their divine potential.

If he stopped evil he would take away free will from creatures. If he took away free will from creature it would be impossible to love. And you are misunderstanding what it means to be omnipotent. To be omnipotent means you can only do that which is possible. God cannot make squares circles because those are mutually exclusive terms. Nor can he make a one ended stick. God can only do that which is possible. And for love to be a factor in the universe choice has to be real and that is why he doesn’t stop evil. Life is but an eternal pinprick for our own good and learning.

“But a moment” is how God once referred to the time of adversities faced by mankind. To understand this requires an eternal perspective.


#123

Why? If our goal is to rise above our nature?

"18 For behold he judgeth, and his judgment is just; and the infant perisheth not that dieth in his infancy; but men drink damnation to their own souls except they humble themselves and become as little children, and believe that salvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the atoning blood of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father." - Mosiah Chapter 3

Yes also called Natural Evil. I’m happy you know the distinction.

When the purpose of life is for us to grow then such pressures and conflict as you mention are necessary for our own good in the eternal perspective. Though they may not seem good in the short term. If we overcome that is. So life is also a test, a trial, a journey to…wherever we wish. And yes things are as they should be in the end.

The Lord has the toughest love of all when it is required. If one understands that verse and takes it to it’s absolute conclusion then we can see all the things that God has done have been for mankinds long term benefit. Even if we may personally disagree because our can’t see what he sees and his purposes.

“And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten” - Moses 1:33

We are central to Gods plan though.

“39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.” Moses 1:39

I feel humans spiritually more so have a heliotropic effect to quote Professor Kim Cameron.

“This refers to the tendency in all living systems toward positive energy [light] and away from negative energy [darkness]. From single-cell organisms to complex human systems, everything alive has an inherent inclination toward the positive and away from the negative."

So I feel we are all drawn to the light of Christ and only fear of the light holds us back. While faith frees us from fear and doubt for " “That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.”


#124

You do not have the free will to not sin. No one has. If we did, we would have some of us who did not.

Right?

You really should start thinking instead of just spouting your useless and wrong dogma.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite “free will!”, or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is “God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy.”

But this simply avoids God’s culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose “A” or “B” (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of “being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent” and “desiring to eat a forbidden fruit” must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and “free will” means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.

Psalm 51:5 “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.”

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

Seems you did not read this correctly or comprehend it so it is worth repeating.


#125

Rise above it??

Why? Do you think your God screwed up and gave us defective low natures something we must rise above of?


#126

Yes. A genocidal son murderer shows a lot of tough love, — to the point of hate, — towards all those he says he loves, and that statement of love is stupidly believed by brain dead sheeple who do not know what love is.