Communism vs Capitalism Sticky


#281

[QUOTE=“lake avenue, post: 216829, member: 3521”]It can lead to oppression. But that doesn’t mean it has to. As much as I don’t like communism, I really hate this statement a lot of people make; communism does not necessarily mean oppressive government. You also can’t just[I] say[/I] that free markets are inherently better.[/QUOTE]

well I did say that it Can, and usually does in my statement. I also explained why it is inherently better, being that It is better at producing value because it relies on individual self interest rather then tax and spend big government. I did not just [I]Say[/I] it was better, I provided support. As for a lot of people saying this, lots of people say this because it is true.


#282

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#283

[QUOTE=“lake avenue, post: 216860, member: 3521”]That’s not how communism works, that’s a very uneducated statement.

Eh.

[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum[/URL][/QUOTE]

hey now, you made the generalization about “a lot of people” first.


#284

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#285

[QUOTE=“Canuck Young Tory, post: 215961, member: 4383”]individuals operating for profit by nature must create value and are encouraged to create value in a capitalist system.[/QUOTE]
Only the socioeconomic class that defines capitalism, the bourgeoisie, does not create value. In fact a rewording of your next statement describes this quite well:

“The bourgeoisie does not create value (for the most part), instead it just takes value from the proletariat and gives it to itself.”

[QUOTE=“Canuck Young Tory, post: 215961, member: 4383”]A government does not create value (for the most part), instead it just takes value from one and gives it to another. The only place were a government creates value is in things like infrastructure and protection were a service is needed but has significant start up costs/advantages to having a monopoly. otherwise free markets are much better. Furthermore, the bigger the government, the smaller the people and too much power in the hands of the state CAN (and in the case of the USSR, North Korea, China, Cambodia, Cuba, and all of the communist countries to date, DID) lead to political corruption and oppression.[/QUOTE]

The rest of your declarations can be summarized into a misconception that communism as a system entails the complete takeover of the state (when it actually entails the complete dismantlement of the state) and/or that the power of the state is literally the only thing that defines Marxist-Leninist ideology. And that’s not even saying anything about “the government creating value”, whatever the hell that is supposed to mean.


#286

[QUOTE=“Canuck Young Tory, post: 215961, member: 4383”]individuals operating for profit by nature must create value and are encouraged to create value in a capitalist system.[/QUOTE]
Only the socioeconomic class that defines capitalism, the bourgeoisie, does not create value. In fact a rewording of your next statement describes this quite well:

“The bourgeoisie does not create value (for the most part), instead it just takes value from the proletariat and gives it to itself.”

[QUOTE=“Canuck Young Tory, post: 215961, member: 4383”]A government does not create value (for the most part), instead it just takes value from one and gives it to another. The only place were a government creates value is in things like infrastructure and protection were a service is needed but has significant start up costs/advantages to having a monopoly. otherwise free markets are much better. Furthermore, the bigger the government, the smaller the people and too much power in the hands of the state CAN (and in the case of the USSR, North Korea, China, Cambodia, Cuba, and all of the communist countries to date, DID) lead to political corruption and oppression.[/QUOTE]

The rest of your declarations can be summarized into a misconception that communism as a system entails the complete takeover of the state (when it actually entails the complete dismantlement of the state) and/or that the power of the state is literally the only thing that defines Marxist-Leninist ideology. And that’s not even saying anything about “the government creating value”, whatever the hell that is supposed to mean.


#287

Not everybody is the same and not everybody has the same needs and ability’s therefor communism would never work properly because for example a toilet cleaner dose not deserve the same pay as a doctor and if everybody is paid the same amount and has the same thing there is no drive to better yourself and to achieve better tings like inventing computers and making people’s lives better. Of course there is always going to be people who are poor and they should be helped but to say that people who don’t work or have low skills should be payed the same as an inventor or a lawyer or a scientist is just ridiculous!


#288

[QUOTE=“TheRightStuff, post: 220854, member: 4521”]Not everybody is the same and not everybody has the same needs and ability’s therefor communism would never work properly because for example a toilet cleaner dose not deserve the same pay as a doctor and if everybody is paid the same amount and has the same thing there is no drive to better yourself and to achieve better tings like inventing computers and making people’s lives better. Of course there is always going to be people who are poor and they should be helped but to say that people who don’t work or have low skills should be payed the same as an inventor or a lawyer or a scientist is just ridiculous![/QUOTE]

What a strawman!


#289

[QUOTE=“TheRightStuff, post: 220854, member: 4521”]Not everybody is the same and not everybody has the same needs.[/QUOTE]

Communism doesn’t assume that everyone is the same.

[QUOTE=“TheRightStuff, post: 220854, member: 4521”]a toilet cleaner dose not deserve the same pay as a doctor [/QUOTE]

Implying that the toilet cleaner is less important than the doctor.

[QUOTE=“TheRightStuff, post: 220854, member: 4521”]if everybody is paid the same amount and has the same thing there is no drive to better yourself and to achieve better tings like inventing computers and making people’s lives better. [/QUOTE]

That’s not really how that works.

[QUOTE=“TheRightStuff, post: 220854, member: 4521”]to say that people who don’t work or have low skills should be payed the same as an inventor or a lawyer or a scientist is just ridiculous![/QUOTE]

Again, you are implying that people who don’t (or can’t) work or unskilled are less valuable than people like doctors or lawyers.


#290

Communists do not purpose everyone gets the same pay, the working class would likely democratically choose to give some roles greater rewards to insensitive the desired behaviour. Toilet cleaner would probably be a decently paid job cause none would want to do it ha


#291

[QUOTE=“Chrome, post: 221339, member: 3050”]Communism doesn’t assume that everyone is the same.

Implying that the toilet cleaner is less important than the doctor.
NO I am not saying that a toilet cleaner is less important than a doctor, we need toilet cleaners but anyone can be a toilet cleaner while it takes years of training to become a doctor. And all I said was that they shouldn’t be payed the same, are you seriously trying to tell me that toilet cleaners and doctors should be payed the same? doctors should be payed more because its a higher skill and to encourage young people to become doctors for the financial reward.

That’s not really how that works.
NO I’m pretty sure that’s how Communism works, taking money from people who work for it and giving it to those who won’t work. The problem with taxing the rich at 50% is that they will just move abroad and all the people that they employ will be unemployed. The rich already pay far more tax than the middle class (the rich pay 45%, middle class pay 20%)

Again, you are implying that people who don’t (or can’t) work or unskilled are less valuable than people like doctors or lawyers.[/QUOTE]
NO Just because they aren’t paid the same dose not make them a less valuable person I was implying that the skill they have is less valuable which is just common sense unskilled people should still be paid a living wage.


#292

[QUOTE=“Stub_Bohs, post: 221369, member: 4276”]Communists do not purpose everyone gets the same pay, the working class would likely democratically choose to give some roles greater rewards to insensitive the desired behaviour. Toilet cleaner would probably be a decently paid job cause none would want to do it ha[/QUOTE]
Then how does that make Communism different to Capitalism?


#293

[QUOTE=“TheRightStuff, post: 221373, member: 4521”]NO Just because they aren’t paid the same dose not make them a less valuable person I was implying that the skill they have is less valuable which is just common sense unskilled people should still be paid a living wage.[/QUOTE]

Just a bit of advise, please use periods. :wink:

I think you are undervaluing skills of the working class.


#294

[QUOTE=“Chrome, post: 221384, member: 3050”]Just a bit of advise, please use periods. :wink:

I think you are undervaluing skills of the working class.[/QUOTE]
No I am not in no way did I say that toilet cleaners aren’t valuable, I just said that they aren’t AS valuable as doctors which is just common sense. I’m not saying the working class as people aren’t valuable just there professions are less skilled than doctors and teachers. Do you think toilet cleaners should be payed the same as doctors ?


#295

[QUOTE=“TheRightStuff, post: 221417, member: 4521”]Do you think toilet cleaners should be payed the same as doctors ?[/QUOTE]

Payed in money? No
That’s not really how communism works.


#296

[QUOTE=“TheRightStuff, post: 221383, member: 4521”]Then how does that make Communism different to Capitalism?[/QUOTE]

Its about who owns the means of production not how much someone gets paid


#297

[QUOTE=“Stub_Bohs, post: 221462, member: 4276”]Its about who owns the means of production not how much someone gets paid[/QUOTE]
But under a capitalist system members of the public can buy shares in a company.


#298

[QUOTE=“TheRightStuff, post: 221494, member: 4521”]But under a capitalist system members of the public can buy shares in a company.[/QUOTE]

That like saying we’ll replace one person one vote with one pound one vote and calling it direct democracy


#299

[QUOTE=“TheRightStuff, post: 221494, member: 4521”]But under a capitalist system members of the public can buy shares in a company.[/QUOTE]

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/004654674/2423269999_hes20right20you20know_answer_1_xlarge.jpeg


#300

[QUOTE=“Stub_Bohs, post: 221500, member: 4276”]That like saying we’ll replace one person one vote with one pound one vote and calling it direct democracy[/QUOTE]
I don’t understand how that is? buying shares in a company has nothing to do with voting in politics, and the more shares you buy the more money you"ll make so you can keep buying more shares that’s how it works, all 65 million people in the UK couldn’t have a say in a business it’s not possible.