Communism vs Capitalism Sticky


#361

[QUOTE=“Camnator, post: 287655, member: 5425”]The answer is obvious, considering the State is incompetent, dangerous, wasteful and threaten to murder you for not complying to its demands.[/QUOTE]

The modern conception of the state is one that has evolved over time and adapted due to changing societal conditions; the state under capitalism is vastly different from the state under feudalism, as different economic conditions and intricacies of the relations of production produce different social (‘super-structural’) institutions. Thus the state functioning as the dictatorship of the proletariat will be vastly different from the state we see today, it will be one based on mass worker democracy, expanding direct participation and civil engagement, and creating the necessary institutions for people to run their own lives, with the sole intention of withering away once social control has been passed to the public.

As others have said however, we aren’t comparing a capitalist economic system to the dictatorship of the proletariat, we’re comparing a capitalist economic system to a communist economic system. In a communist system there would be no state at all!


#362

What is communism?


#363

[QUOTE=“Gregor Samsa, post: 309073, member: 5329”]What is communism?[/QUOTE]
“Communism is a classless social system with one form of public ownership of the means of production and with full social equality of all members of society. Under communism, the all-round development of people will be accompanied by the growth of the productive forces on the basis of continuous progress in science and technology, all the springs of social wealth will flow abundantly, and the great principle “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” will be implemented. Communism is a highly organised society of free, socially conscious working people; a society in which public self-government will be established; a society in which labour for the good of society will become the prime vital requirement of everyone, a clearly recognized necessity, and the ability of each person will be employed to the greatest benefit of the people.”

[URL]http://eurodos.home.xs4all.nl/docu/cpsu-texts/cpsu86-21.htm#CPSUTasks[/URL]


#364

[QUOTE=“Kyte314, post: 309081, member: 1298”]“Communism is a classless social system with one form of public ownership of the means of production and with full social equality of all members of society. Under communism, the all-round development of people will be accompanied by the growth of the productive forces on the basis of continuous progress in science and technology, all the springs of social wealth will flow abundantly, and the great principle “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” will be implemented. Communism is a highly organised society of free, socially conscious working people; a society in which public self-government will be established; a society in which labour for the good of society will become the prime vital requirement of everyone, a clearly recognized necessity, and the ability of each person will be employed to the greatest benefit of the people.”

[URL]http://eurodos.home.xs4all.nl/docu/cpsu-texts/cpsu86-21.htm#CPSUTasks[/URL][/QUOTE]

Has communism in this form existed?


#365

[QUOTE=“Gregor Samsa, post: 309084, member: 5329”]Has communism in this form existed?[/QUOTE]
No, but socialist societies following this similar ideal have, more or less.


#366

[QUOTE=“Gregor Samsa, post: 309084, member: 5329”]Has communism in this form existed?[/QUOTE]

Yes in more or less all tribal societies and in an induestiral form in Ukraine from 1918 to 1921 and Catalonia 1936 to 1939.


#367

[QUOTE=“Kyte314, post: 309086, member: 1298”]No, but socialist societies following this similar ideal have, more or less.[/QUOTE]

My political knowledge is very limited so forgive me if I get something very wrong here.

Aren’t socialist countries (specifically Scandinavian countries, since they are, I think, the most socialist, or the best example at least) quite a bit different from what communism is there? They tend to have programs in place and attitudes to help people, rehabilitate criminals, and encourage social equality. Even then there’s private property, a government in place (with a hierarchy, as opposed to all being equal), and private ownership of production. If this is true there seems to be a very great difference between communism and extant socialist societies.


#368

[QUOTE=“A341, post: 309087, member: 2382”]Yes in more or less all tribal societies and in an induestiral form in Ukraine from 1918 to 1921 and Catalonia 1936 to 1939.[/QUOTE]

What ended it in Ukraine and Catalonia?


#369

[QUOTE=“Gregor Samsa, post: 309099, member: 5329”]What ended it in Ukraine and Catalonia?[/QUOTE]

Franco invading and the other communist groups beating the ever living shit out of the CNT in Catalonia and the supposedly communist USSR invading in Ukraine.


#370

[QUOTE=“A341, post: 309108, member: 2382”]Franco invading and the other communist groups beating the ever living shit out of the CNT in Catalonia and the supposedly communist USSR invading in Ukraine.[/QUOTE]

What did you mean by “in an industrial form in Ukraine”, and did Ukraine & Catalonia really have a completely classless society without private ownership of production? I only ask because it seems like there are a lot of requirements for a society to be communistic if we go by the definition provided by Kyte.


#371

[QUOTE=“A341, post: 309108, member: 2382”]Franco invading and the other communist groups beating the ever living shit out of the CNT in Catalonia and the supposedly communist USSR invading in Ukraine.[/QUOTE]

What did you mean by “in an industrial form in Ukraine”, and did Ukraine & Catalonia really have a completely classless society without private ownership of production? I only ask because it seems like there are a lot of requirements for a society to be communistic if we go by the definition provided by Kyte.


#372

[QUOTE=“Gregor Samsa, post: 309113, member: 5329”]What did you mean by “in an industrial form in Ukraine”, and did Ukraine & Catalonia really have a completely classless society without private ownership of production?[/QUOTE]

Yes, although you could say that some form of an intelligentsia remained.


#373

[QUOTE=“A341, post: 309121, member: 2382”]Yes, although you could say that some form of an intelligentsia remained.[/QUOTE]

Does this imply that the intelligentsia were the policy-makers, or that they were above the rest, or something else?

Also, according to the explanation provided by Kyte, “the ability of each person will be employed to the greatest benefit of the people.”" If this is indeed true, does that mean that if you are very good at something you will be forced by others to do what you are good at, even if it’s not your desire, e.g. you’re an incredible craftsman but you want to be an artist even though you’re mediocre?


#374

[QUOTE=“Gregor Samsa, post: 309094, member: 5329”]My political knowledge is very limited so forgive me if I get something very wrong here.

Aren’t socialist countries (specifically Scandinavian countries, since they are, I think, the most socialist, or the best example at least) quite a bit different from what communism is there? They tend to have programs in place and attitudes to help people, rehabilitate criminals, and encourage social equality. Even then there’s private property, a government in place (with a hierarchy, as opposed to all being equal), and private ownership of production. If this is true there seems to be a very great difference between communism and extant socialist societies.[/QUOTE]
The Scandinavian countries aren’t socialist at all. They practice social democracy, which is capitalist.


#375

[QUOTE=“Kyte314, post: 309132, member: 1298”]The Scandinavian countries aren’t socialist at all. They practice social democracy, which is capitalist.[/QUOTE]

In that case, what countries are socialist? China and Cuba?


#376

[QUOTE=“Gregor Samsa, post: 309135, member: 5329”]In that case, what countries are socialist? China and Cuba?[/QUOTE]
Do you mean socialist as in run by socialists, or under an actual socialist mode of production?


#377

[QUOTE=“Gregor Samsa, post: 309126, member: 5329”]If this is indeed true, does that mean that if you are very good at something you will be forced by others to do what you are good at, even if it’s not your desire, e.g. you’re an incredible craftsman but you want to be an artist even though you’re mediocre?[/QUOTE]

That’s one of the quotes that is very difficult to interpenetrate in reality in reality the major defining characteristics of communism are:

No private property
Collectivized ownership and operation of the means of production
No classes
No state

however yes everyone who was employed was employed for the benefit of the collective rather than the individual through it was by choice.


#378

[QUOTE=“Kyte314, post: 309167, member: 1298”]Do you mean socialist as in run by socialists, or under an actual socialist mode of production?[/QUOTE]

Whichever you meant with “socialist societies following this similar ideal have, more or less.” I am just curious to know how close to communism societies have come, especially because there is a dispute between yourself and A341, as one of you thinks communism has existed and the other doesn’t.

[QUOTE=“A341, post: 309172, member: 2382”]however yes everyone who was employed was employed for the benefit of the collective rather than the individual through it was by choice.[/QUOTE]

It seems very bold to claim that everyone did what they were best at of their own volition, considering how willful people are and how not everyone wants to work to the extent of their ability. Do you instead mean that the choice was made by those societies to value everyone working to the benefit of the collective, or do you maintain what you’ve said there? Also, does everyone working to the benefit of the collective not mean that people will inevitably become greater than others? By this I mean that if someone has a knack for politics, or war as a leader, or something similar, do they not then have more power than someone who has a knack for janitorial duties? Or someone is a skilled head chef while another is a skilled sous-chef, does this not create a hierarchy where the sous-chef would acknowledge the superiority of the head chef, or a nurse to a surgeon, and so on?


#379

[QUOTE=“Kyte314, post: 292895, member: 1298”]Free markets are the ones that are incompetent, dangerous, and wasteful…[/QUOTE]
So you’re just going to ignore how pretty much no country on the planet has a free market in agriculture? Or how it’s precisely the free market which will be leading to technological innovation [I]in [/I]agriculture, epitomised by things like GMOs and hydroponics?

What a poor argument.


#380

[QUOTE=“Gregor Samsa, post: 309094, member: 5329”](specifically Scandinavian countries, since they are, I think, the most socialist, or the best example at least) [/QUOTE]
Scandinavian countries are [I]nowhere near [/I]socialist. They’re some of the most capitalist places on Earth.