Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?


#1

Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Some religions like Christianity and Islam teach that people are condemned by God and that we have to work to gain salvation. God created us ill, and orders us to be well, on pain of tremendous eternal torture and eventual death. This teaching follows the one where we are told that God is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways. This makes the notions of condemnation and the need for salvation obvious lies.

Gnostic Christianity does not use this type of carrot and stick motivation in its theology. We are Universalists and only see a heaven, no hell. We think God too good a creator to ever have to condemn anyone. Our God is a winner, not the loser God that Christianity has invented. All the Gods are myths created to help us reach our highest human potential and are only tools to open our inner eye. Our single eye as Jesus calls it.

How we can forgive ourselves is that as Universalists, we have tied righteousness to equality. The logic trail from there says that if God is to punish anyone, he would have to punish everyone as everyone contributes to what we all are.

For instance. If God were to punish Hitler, he would have to revue what made Hitler what he ended up being. God would follow his time line and see perhaps that his parents spanked him and God would know what we know today, that spanking creates resentment and a delinquent attitude. That beginning would see Hitler’s parents setting his mindset which eventually flowered into his tyrannical nature. So to be just, God would automatically have to punish Hitler’s parents. That same logic would apply to everyone who contributed or facilitated Hitler’s rise to infamy.

So for you and me to blame just ourselves for what we are would be quite unjust. This is not to say that we hold no responsibility for our actions, just not all of them.

Do you agree that the need of Salvation promoted by religions is an evil lie?

Regards
DL


#2

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2679365, member: 15351”]Do you agree that the need of Salvation promoted by religions is an evil lie?[/QUOTE]

A lie? Yes.
Evil? No.


#3

[QUOTE=“Chrome, post: 2679381, member: 3050”]A lie? Yes.
Evil? No.[/QUOTE]

Truth is usually considered good and lies evil.

I can see white lies, like your aunts gift of an ugly tie might be good as it is said not to hurt her feeling.

That is not the case with this salvation issue as it has been shown to do harm by creating a false sense of guilt.

Why is the lie of the need of salvation good to you?

Regards
DL


#4

It may be false, but that does not make it a lie, or evil.


#5

I dislike the dichotomy of good and evil, so naturally I do not see anything as being good or evil.

That is not the case with this salvation issue as it has been shown to do harm by creating a false sense of guilt.
Why is the lie of the need of salvation good to you?

This false salvation created the foundation for the enforcement of Western moral values (which are based in religion).


#6

[QUOTE=“Vulpes, post: 2679393, member: 3029”]It may be false, but that does not make it a lie, or evil.[/QUOTE]

Have you heard of the law of the excluded middle?

To promote false ideas without any proof or evidence is lying.

If we were talking of a weather report you might be right but this is a lie that creates a lot of damage to a lot of people.

Regards
DL


#7

[QUOTE=“Chrome, post: 2679399, member: 3050”]I dislike the dichotomy of good and evil, so naturally I do not see anything as being good or evil.

[B]So you would not see your daughter being raped as evil. Ok.[/B]

This false salvation created the foundation for the enforcement of Western moral values (which are based in religion).[/QUOTE]

[B]Hogwash. Our secular systems have better laws than what religions have and we have advanced in spite of Christianity. Apologies for not using the quote function as I could not see it.

Regards
DL[/B]


#8

No.
[B][/B]

[B]Hogwash. Our secular systems have better laws than what religions have and we have advanced in spite of Christianity.[/B]

Okay? You do realize you’ve done [I]nothing [/I]to disprove my point that religion is the foundation for our morals and values. Yes, we live in a secular society, but it’s pure ignorance to ignore the significant impact that religion has on modern society.


#9

[QUOTE=“Chrome, post: 2679405, member: 3050”]No.

Okay? You do realize you’ve done [I]nothing [/I]to disprove my point that religion is the foundation for our morals and values. Yes, we live in a secular society, but it’s pure ignorance to ignore the significant impact that religion has on modern society.[/QUOTE]

I spoke to this above but really, if you do not recognize the evil in rape, we have nothing to discuss. I am not interested in dirtying my mind with anything you might have to say.

It would be impossible for us to discus the morality or immorality of any law as you have satanic morals.

Please ignore me.

Regards
DL


#10

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2679417, member: 15351”]I spoke to this above but really, if you do not recognize the evil in rape, we have nothing to discuss. I am not interested in dirtying my mind with anything you might have to say.[/QUOTE]

We have differing moral outlooks on life. Not wanting to discuss such a topic with someone because they disagree with you is close minded and defeats the purpose of a debate-based website.

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2679417, member: 15351”]It would be impossible for us to discus the morality or immorality of any law as you have satanic morals.[/QUOTE]

I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about at this point.

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2679417, member: 15351”]Please ignore me.[/QUOTE]

Given I’m a staff member, I can’t block you. But you also can’t block me.


#11

[QUOTE=“Chrome, post: 2679420, member: 3050”]We have differing moral outlooks on life.

[B]That is quite apparent as I see rape as evil.[/B]

I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about at this point.
.[/QUOTE]

[B]Not surprising at all.
You give truth to what I put in my last post.[/B]

Regards
DL


#12

It is not evil. It makes sense to imply that you have to work for something if you really want it. If people believe in life after death, it makes sense for them to live as they should in order to gain that ‘prize’. Whether it’s a lie or not, I guess we will have to wait and see. Till that time comes, you should embrace your values and show respect for all.


#13

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2679365, member: 15351”]Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Some religions like Christianity and Islam teach that people are condemned by God and that we have to work to gain salvation. God created us ill, and orders us to be well, on pain of tremendous eternal torture and eventual death. This teaching follows the one where we are told that God is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways. This makes the notions of condemnation and the need for salvation obvious lies.

Gnostic Christianity does not use this type of carrot and stick motivation in its theology. We are Universalists and only see a heaven, no hell. We think God too good a creator to ever have to condemn anyone. Our God is a winner, not the loser God that Christianity has invented. All the Gods are myths created to help us reach our highest human potential and are only tools to open our inner eye. Our single eye as Jesus calls it.

How we can forgive ourselves is that as Universalists, we have tied righteousness to equality. The logic trail from there says that if God is to punish anyone, he would have to punish everyone as everyone contributes to what we all are.

For instance. If God were to punish Hitler, he would have to revue what made Hitler what he ended up being. God would follow his time line and see perhaps that his parents spanked him and God would know what we know today, that spanking creates resentment and a delinquent attitude. That beginning would see Hitler’s parents setting his mindset which eventually flowered into his tyrannical nature. So to be just, God would automatically have to punish Hitler’s parents. That same logic would apply to everyone who contributed or facilitated Hitler’s rise to infamy.

So for you and me to blame just ourselves for what we are would be quite unjust. This is not to say that we hold no responsibility for our actions, just not all of them.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t see how you being blameless for your creation and actions, and thus it being unjust to be judged by your creator, makes even the slightest of difference for justifying a universalist take on the Christian religion. It just seems like your picking and choosing arbitrarily to believe in one lie over another. Is it not just as much a lie to peddle heaven to people as the aftermath of their life, and in doing so giving them a false hope for the future? It’s like telling someone that they’re going to win the lottery, so don’t worry about anything else in your life right now.

As for how your version of God is a “winner”, whereas the Christian God is a “loser”, that just seems like an inane childish take on the issue. God is a “winner” no-matter how brutally he treats you, because he’s in charge. Letting everyone into heaven doesn’t make you a winner any more than it makes the teacher who gives everyone participation rewards a winner.


#14

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2679365, member: 15351”]God created us ill,[/QUOTE]
Not according to the Bible, he didn’t.

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2679365, member: 15351”]Gnostic Christianity[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2679365, member: 15351”]We are[/QUOTE]
Just when I though you guys had disappeared for good…

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2679365, member: 15351”]not the loser God that Christianity has invented[/QUOTE]
Christ conquered death… he is anything but a loser. Something your “religion” does not recognise.

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2679365, member: 15351”]Do you agree that the need of Salvation promoted by religions is an evil lie?[/QUOTE]
When I look at the world, I am increasingly convinced that salvation is necessary. Rather than being a lie, there could not be a greater truth.


#15

[QUOTE=“jaxi21, post: 2679474, member: 34105”]It is not evil. It makes sense to imply that you have to work for something if you really want it. If people believe in life after death, it makes sense for them to live as they should in order to gain that ‘prize’. Whether it’s a lie or not, I guess we will have to wait and see. Till that time comes, you should embrace your values and show respect for all.[/QUOTE]

Why would you want to respect a religion that follows an immoral creed?

Do you like and respect evil creeds?

Is truth and good morals not important to you and why would you respect evil ones?

Regards
DL


#16

[QUOTE=“Ricky, post: 2679604, member: 2996”]I don’t see how you being blameless for your creation and actions, and thus it being unjust to be judged by your creator, makes even the slightest of difference for justifying a universalist take on the Christian religion. It just seems like your picking and choosing arbitrarily to believe in one lie over another. Is it not just as much a lie to peddle heaven to people as the aftermath of their life, and in doing so giving them a false hope for the future? It’s like telling someone that they’re going to win the lottery, so don’t worry about anything else in your life right now.

As for how your version of God is a “winner”, whereas the Christian God is a “loser”, that just seems like an inane childish take on the issue. God is a “winner” no-matter how brutally he treats you, because he’s in charge. Letting everyone into heaven doesn’t make you a winner any more than it makes the teacher who gives everyone participation rewards a winner.[/QUOTE]

No one said we were blameless. I did say that the blame should be shared by all those who made us what we are.

If a teacher can only get a small number to pass while the larger group does not, would you call that teacher a good on or a loser who needs to be replaced by a decent one?

Regards
DL


#17

[QUOTE=“owainp, post: 2679833, member: 4544”]Not according to the Bible, he didn’t.

Just when I though you guys had disappeared for good…

Christ conquered death… he is anything but a loser. Something your “religion” does not recognise.

When I look at the world, I am increasingly convinced that salvation is necessary. Rather than being a lie, there could not be a greater truth.[/QUOTE]

Are you, like Christians, willing to accept that human sacrifice and the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty is somehow good justice?

As to Christ conquering death. How can you know this when most of the Gospels do not even mention resurrection?

And if he did, where is he?

Regards
DL


#18

Well, it’s an incorrect belief which is preached by people who believe it. Calling it an “evil lie” isn’t quite how I’d describe it. A mistake is better.


#19

[QUOTE=“snoge, post: 2681923, member: 6022”]Well, it’s an incorrect belief which is preached by people who believe it. Calling it an “evil lie” isn’t quite how I’d describe it. A mistake is better.[/QUOTE]

To my way of thinking, only big fools will believe that priests and imams are not well aware of the lies they spew daily.

Have you ever chatted with either. Their lies, when face to face, are quite apparent.

Regards
DL


#20

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2681981, member: 15351”]To my way of thinking, only big fools will believe that priests and imams are not well aware of the lies they spew daily.

Have you ever chatted with either. Their lies, when face to face, are quite apparent.

Regards
DL[/QUOTE]

I know several priests and have met an imam. Of course they believe what they preach.