Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?


#21

[QUOTE=“snoge, post: 2681983, member: 6022”]I know several priests and have met an imam. Of course they believe what they preach.[/QUOTE]

These are usually educated people but if you wish to believe that educated people believe the lies they spew, go ahead.

Regards
DL


#22

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2681921, member: 15351”]No one said we were blameless. I did say that the blame should be shared by all those who made us what we are.

If a teacher can only get a small number to pass while the larger group does not, would you call that teacher a good on or a loser who needs to be replaced by a decent one?
[/QUOTE]

If a teacher passes the entire class and does not fail those who have no comprehension of the material, then they might as well not have gone to class, and certainly didn’t earn their grade.


#23

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2681989, member: 15351”]These are usually educated people but if you wish to believe that educated people believe the lies they spew, go ahead.
[/QUOTE]

History is littered with very intelligent people whom in their own private memoirs tell of a deep faith in religious precepts.


#24

[QUOTE=“Ricky, post: 2682013, member: 2996”]If a teacher passes the entire class and does not fail those who have no comprehension of the material, then they might as well not have gone to class, and certainly didn’t earn their grade.[/QUOTE]

True but the teacher does not say that he created all the students the same way.

If we cannot expect equality from God, then he should have told us that we were all on some kind of tier system.

Regards
DL


#25

[QUOTE=“Ricky, post: 2682014, member: 2996”]History is littered with very intelligent people whom in their own private memoirs tell of a deep faith in religious precepts.[/QUOTE]

Indeed. We have had many thoughtless sheeple who have been indoctrinated to the point of calling it brainwashing.

Regards
DL


#26

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682038, member: 15351”]Indeed. We have had many thoughtless sheeple who have been indoctrinated to the point of calling it brainwashing.
[/QUOTE]

Except that the intelligence of these people provides evidence that they are anything but thoughtless. Trying to frame the religious impulse as nothing but ignorance is ignorant in and of itself. Anything but absolute objectivist nihilism can be framed as a form of religion.


#27

[QUOTE=“Ricky, post: 2682041, member: 2996”]Except that the intelligence of these people provides evidence that they are anything but thoughtless. Trying to frame the religious impulse as nothing but ignorance is ignorant in and of itself. Anything but absolute objectivist nihilism can be framed as a form of religion.[/QUOTE]

I agree that thoughtless was the wrong word. They think about what they are lying about for sure.

Immoral would have been a better world.

At their root, all that religions are, are tribal units. They are created to appease our hivish or groupish natures.

I have my own experience to go by for determining that most, if not all priests and imams, are knowingly lying. I have also read a couple of bios from priests and ex priests.

I do not see the religious impulse as ignorant at all. I do see it as a both good and evil. Without it, we would not have progressed as far as we have, but at the same time, our hivish instincts have slowed down innovation by keeping us attached to a group when we should have been leaving a poor tribe behind.

Today, I see religions as harmful to society because of their poor morals. The religious have forgotten that our individual spirituality is more important than the tribe we happen to support.

Regards
DL


#28

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2681922, member: 15351”]human sacrifice[/QUOTE]
Well, strictly speaking, we believe he was divine, not simply human.

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2681922, member: 15351”]instead of the guilty[/QUOTE]
He died [I]FOR[/I] the guilty.

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2681922, member: 15351”]How can you know this when most of the Gospels do not even mention resurrection?[/QUOTE]
Well actually all but John [I]explicitly state[/I] the resurrection, and even in John it is both inferred and then “proven” through Jesus’ reappearance.

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2681922, member: 15351”]And if he did, where is he?[/QUOTE]
Well, the gospels also make it clear that he ascended to heaven after appearing and blessing the disciples.

If you believe (like gnostics) that Jesus was simply a man, then his healings, miracles and resurrection don’t and won’t make any sense. He had to be both human (for him to be able to relate to us- no-one can say that God does not know suffering) and divine (in order to conquer death and truly bring salvation) for such things to even [I]sound[/I] plausible. I understand however that in all likelihood this still won’t make sense…


#29

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682071, member: 15351”]
Today, I see religions as harmful to society because of their poor morals. The religious have forgotten that our individual spirituality is more important than the tribe we happen to support.
[/QUOTE]

I disagree. I’m an atheist and I find the rampant individualism in modern Western society pretty shitty.


#30

[QUOTE=“owainp, post: 2682078, member: 4544”]Well, strictly speaking, we believe he was divine, not simply human.

He died [I]FOR[/I] the guilty.

Well actually all but John [I]explicitly state[/I] the resurrection, and even in John it is both inferred and then “proven” through Jesus’ reappearance.

Well, the gospels also make it clear that he ascended to heaven after appearing and blessing the disciples.

If you believe (like gnostics) that Jesus was simply a man, then his healings, miracles and resurrection don’t and won’t make any sense. He had to be both human (for him to be able to relate to us- no-one can say that God does not know suffering) and divine (in order to conquer death and truly bring salvation) for such things to even [I]sound[/I] plausible. I understand however that in all likelihood this still won’t make sense…[/QUOTE]

If Jesus was divine, then show the quote that says God can die.

If God cannot die and if Jesus did not stay dead then there was no real sacrifice. Right?

You also do not seem aware that the Jewish messiah was to live and rule. Not go away.

For a God to conquer death by dying is rather a strange notion.

If human death is conquered, why are all of us dying and none of us are showing that human dearth has been conquered?

I agree with your last and find very little in the Abrahamic religions, when taken literally, as making any kind of sense.

They, like Gnostic Christian myths, were created to seek God with as Jesus said we should.

Those Abrahamic myths were not meant to create the idol worshipers that Christianity and Islam have become.

Regards
DL


#31

[QUOTE=“Ricky, post: 2682129, member: 2996”]I disagree. I’m an atheist and I find the rampant individualism in modern Western society pretty shitty.[/QUOTE]

I see almost no individuality as most Westerners fall into just a few predictable categories. Sure we can all say we are individual thinkers and all different, and we are, but we still all fall into the common labels in use today. Like atheism.

Or in my case, Gnostic Christian.

I chose that labels specifically to be seen as a certain type just as you have chosen atheist to describe your general mind set.

Regards
DL


#32

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682230, member: 15351”]I see almost no individuality as most Westerners fall into just a few predictable categories. Sure we can all say we are individual thinkers and all different, and we are, but we still all fall into the common labels in use today. Like atheism.
[/QUOTE]

Whether or not it is actually being achieved doesn’t change that it is being actively striven for, and in the act of doing so encouraging destructive behavior.


#33

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682229, member: 15351”]If Jesus was divine, then show the quote that says God can die.[/QUOTE]
"[I]The Word became flesh[/I] and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, [I]who came from the Father, [/I]full of grace and truth" (John 1:14). If he can become flesh, he can die.

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682229, member: 15351”]If God cannot die and if Jesus did not stay dead then there was no real sacrifice. Right?[/QUOTE]
Wrong. Because Jesus [I]did[/I] suffer, all the gospels make this clear.

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682229, member: 15351”]You also do not seem aware that the Jewish messiah was to live and rule. Not go away.[/QUOTE]
Isaiah does not seem to agree: “But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed” (Isaiah 53:5).

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682229, member: 15351”]For a God to conquer death by dying is rather a strange notion.[/QUOTE]
Of course it is. But then he could not rise (conquer death itself) without first dying.

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682229, member: 15351”]If human death is conquered, why are all of us dying and none of us are showing that human dearth has been conquered?[/QUOTE]
Physical death will continue until the “end of the age”. Spiritual death however, has been conquered, The consequences of sin and evil have no hold on those who are willing to accept God’s grace.

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682229, member: 15351”]They, like Gnostic Christian myths, were created to seek God with as Jesus said we should.[/QUOTE]
The story of both the OT and NT is about a God who wants to know [I]us[/I], not the reverse. Many other deities couldn’t care less whether we chose to accept them, clearly, Adonai [I]does[/I] wish to have a relationship. If I had to summarise the entire Bible in one sentence (not a particularly intelligent thing to do, but anyway), I would say that it is “the story of [I]the [/I]loving creator, who actively involves himself in humanity, that he might have a true, loving relationship with that creation”. That’s very simplistic and misses salvation etc, but the point is that God wants a relationship with us, so it’s not about us trying to seek some ultimate truth.

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682229, member: 15351”]Those Abrahamic myths were not meant to create the idol worshipers that Christianity and Islam have become.[/QUOTE]
I haven’t the foggiest clue what you mean by “idol worshippers”. Please point out to my blind eyes how I worship an idol. And don’t mention crucifixes, no-one worships a piece of wood. Don’t mistake symbolism for a deity.


#34

[QUOTE=“Ricky, post: 2682259, member: 2996”]Whether or not it is actually being achieved doesn’t change that it is being actively striven for, and in the act of doing so encouraging destructive behavior.[/QUOTE]

I see religions as the destructive ones as they stifle innovation in thinking and follow ancient and immoral creeds.

The Christian movement used death and burning to stop the innovation that you fear.

Idol worshipers like Christians and Muslims try to keep the active seekers to a minimum.

Regards
DL


#35

[QUOTE=“owainp, post: 2682292, member: 4544”]"[I]The Word became flesh[/I] and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, [I]who came from the Father, [/I]full of grace and truth" (John 1:14). If he can become flesh, he can die.

Wrong. Because Jesus [I]did[/I] suffer, all the gospels make this clear.

Isaiah does not seem to agree: “But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed” (Isaiah 53:5).

Of course it is. But then he could not rise (conquer death itself) without first dying.

Physical death will continue until the “end of the age”. Spiritual death however, has been conquered, The consequences of sin and evil have no hold on those who are willing to accept God’s grace.

The story of both the OT and NT is about a God who wants to know [I]us[/I], not the reverse. Many other deities couldn’t care less whether we chose to accept them, clearly, Adonai [I]does[/I] wish to have a relationship. If I had to summarise the entire Bible in one sentence (not a particularly intelligent thing to do, but anyway), I would say that it is “the story of [I]the [/I]loving creator, who actively involves himself in humanity, that he might have a true, loving relationship with that creation”. That’s very simplistic and misses salvation etc, but the point is that God wants a relationship with us, so it’s not about us trying to seek some ultimate truth.

I haven’t the foggiest clue what you mean by “idol worshippers”. Please point out to my blind eyes how I worship an idol. And don’t mention crucifixes, no-one worships a piece of wood. Don’t mistake symbolism for a deity.[/QUOTE]

You base your beliefs on imaginary and supernatural B.S.

You say Jesus conquered physical death but only for himself and you call a bit of pain on the cross a huge sacrifice while an eternal God would have seen any change to his condition as a huge gift.

You say God wants to know us while ignoring that he somehow does not know the natures that he was supposed to create.

If you do not see the conflict in your thinking, it is because your idol worship of the God you have named. That name was created by man and that is definitely idol worship.

Regards
DL


#36

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682300, member: 15351”]I see religions as the destructive ones as they stifle innovation in thinking and follow ancient and immoral creeds.

The Christian movement used death and burning to stop the innovation that you fear.

Idol worshipers like Christians and Muslims try to keep the active seekers to a minimum.
[/QUOTE]

Individualism and innovation are two entirely separate things.
As for the violence, how many people were guillotined in the democratic revolutions of France and Europe?
How many persons died by strategic bombing committed by liberal democracies?
Don’t throw stones from a glass house. Nearly every ideological movement in human history has blood on it’s hands.


#37

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2681989, member: 15351”]These are usually educated people but if you wish to believe that educated people believe the lies they spew, go ahead.

Regards
DL[/QUOTE]
So all the priests are evil liars who just want to fuck with people? Are you joking?

Gnosticism, not even once.


#38

[QUOTE=“Ricky, post: 2682309, member: 2996”]Individualism and innovation are two entirely separate things.
As for the violence, how many people were guillotined in the democratic revolutions of France and Europe?
How many persons died by strategic bombing committed by liberal democracies?
Don’t throw stones from a glass house. Nearly every ideological movement in human history has blood on it’s hands.[/QUOTE]

I cannot disagree, but you seem to have forgotten that the religious have been the great majority for at least 2,000 tears so if you want to point one finger at non-theists, I can point to a lot more wars produced by theists.

Regards
DL


#39

[QUOTE=“De Dannan, post: 2682312, member: 1324”]So all the priests are evil liars who just want to fuck with people? Are you joking?

Gnosticism, not even once.[/QUOTE]

All you need do is sit and chat with any priest or imam. If your discernment is poor enough to not see their lies then that is too bad.

As to Gnostic Christians, there was quite a number of different sects, almost as many sects as Christianity has fragmented into, and some likely did lie.

That may be irrelevant to a Gnostic Christian who has achieved even a small amount of Gnosis. We even debate against our own if the morality being taught is not sound. Most of us are perpetual seekers and esoteric ecumenists and are just as critical of Gnostic Christian beliefs as we are of all other religions. That is why Gnostic Christianity, to us, is the only worthy religious tradition. We are always ready and able to adopt the best possible thinking and morality.

What lie, specifically, are you referring to?
Let’s see if it was really a lie.

Regards
DL


#40

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682319, member: 15351”]I cannot disagree, but you seem to have forgotten that the religious have been the great majority for at least 2,000 tears so if you want to point one finger at non-theists, I can point to a lot more wars produced by theists.
[/QUOTE]

The length of time which theists have had only decreases their culpability. A 80 year old man who committed three crimes in his entire life is more trustworthy than an 18 year old that has already committed two crimes.