Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?


#41

[QUOTE=“Ricky, post: 2682338, member: 2996”]The length of time which theists have had only decreases their culpability. A 80 year old man who committed three crimes in his entire life is more trustworthy than an 18 year old that has already committed two crimes.[/QUOTE]

An 18 year old has many years to learn how to do things right. The 80 year old and his biases are likely written in stone.

Look at both our 80 year old Christianity and Islam. They are still trying to have us stone gays and those who would have sex out of marriage.

Give me a young man to mold. Not an old one who is too senile to learn something better than what he has.

Regards
DL


#42

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682339, member: 15351”]An 18 year old has many years to learn how to do things right. The 80 year old and his biases are likely written in stone.

Look at both our 80 year old Christianity and Islam. They are still trying to have us stone gays and those who would have sex out of marriage.

Give me a young man to mold. Not an old one who is too senile to learn something better than what he has.
[/QUOTE]

Nice comeback :slight_smile:

You’d be hard pressed to find a mainstream Christian who condones any such sort behavior, the religion is on its last legs. Islam is another animal entirely.

Regardless, ideologies are not people, and as history has proven (through the protestant reformation, secularization) that religious populations can have their opinions drastically change regardless of whether or not the source material does.


#43

[QUOTE=“Ricky, post: 2682342, member: 2996”]Nice comeback :slight_smile:

You’d be hard pressed to find a mainstream Christian who condones any such sort behavior, the religion is on its last legs. Islam is another animal entirely.

Regardless, ideologies are not people, and as history has proven (through the protestant reformation, secularization) that religious populations can have their opinions drastically change regardless of whether or not the source material does.[/QUOTE]

True that we have brought Christianity to heel to some extent but they are still presently homophobic and misogynous just as Islam is.

Muslims, unfortunately, walk their talk while Christianity knows we would not tolerate them if they tried to do so. Except perhaps in Mississippi and North Carolina.

I don’t know if I would say that the reformation and secularization are close.

Secular law is liberalizing the human condition while the religious right that is mostly protestants and Catholics are way over on the conservative side.

If right wing Christianity cannot get their barbaric laws passed in the West, the bastards are going elsewhere to do their garbage.

I E.

African witches and Jesus
[U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pr6gvtYrga8[/U]

Death to Gays.
[U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyuKLyGUHNE[/U]

Regards
DL


#44

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682301, member: 15351”]You base your beliefs on imaginary and supernatural B.S.[/QUOTE]
Applying your logic= That’s rich coming from a gnostic.

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682301, member: 15351”]You say Jesus conquered physical death but only for himself[/QUOTE]
When did I say that? On the contrary, he died for all.

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682301, member: 15351”]you call a bit of pain on the cross a huge sacrifice[/QUOTE]
Ummm… Ever had your hands and feet pegged to a piece of wood with large iron nails? I can think of few methods of execution more painful than this.

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682301, member: 15351”]while an eternal God would have seen any change to his condition as a huge gift.[/QUOTE]
I haven’t the foggiest what you’re talking about.

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682301, member: 15351”]You say God wants to know us while ignoring that he somehow does not know the natures that he was supposed to create.[/QUOTE]
Still haven’t a clue what you mean by this. He knew that when he created us, there was a chance that we might decide not to follow him.

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682301, member: 15351”]it is because your idol worship of the God you have named.[/QUOTE]
Idol worship? Pray do tell.

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682301, member: 15351”]That name was created by man and that is definitely idol worship.[/QUOTE]
The name? [U][I][B]THE [/B][/I][/U]Name? You mean YHWH? Created by man? How so? Biblically you have no evidence, even historically you can’t point to a time where one thought to himself, “I think I’ll name my God YHWH.” My question is, how do you [I]know[/I] the name was created by man?

And you have failed to show [I]how[/I] it is idol worship.


#45

@Greatest I am stop calling yourself a “Gnostic [I]Christian[/I]”. As in leave the “Christian” out, because clearly your beliefs are nothing like ours.


#46

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682362, member: 15351”]True that we have brought Christianity to heel to some extent but they are still presently homophobic and misogynous just as Islam is.

Muslims, unfortunately, walk their talk while Christianity knows we would not tolerate them if they tried to do so. Except perhaps in Mississippi and North Carolina.

I don’t know if I would say that the reformation and secularization are close.

Secular law is liberalizing the human condition while the religious right that is mostly protestants and Catholics are way over on the conservative side.

If right wing Christianity cannot get their barbaric laws passed in the West, the bastards are going elsewhere to do their garbage.

I E.

African witches and Jesus
[U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pr6gvtYrga8[/U]

Death to Gays.
[U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyuKLyGUHNE[/U]

Regards
DL[/QUOTE]

lol if you think Africa wasn’t a shit-show before Christianity showed up, I’ve got news for you…
They’ve fucked babies because they think it can cure aids too. Let me know what holy book mentions that.

All I can say to the rest is that it seems like you grew up in a different time, with different priorities. From my perspective Christianity is all but dead, or on it’s last dying breaths. They lost no-fault divorce, they lost abortion, and they’ve just lost gay marriage. Focusing large amounts of emotional energy on them is, at this point, beating a dead horse.

On the other hand you have the most rapidly growing religion on earth, Islam, which has had basically no reformation whatsoever, and of whom over half of it’s adherents self-report in polls that they agree with the death penalty for apostasy, is making it’s way into Western countries and is on track to become the demographic majority in many European counties.


#47

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682321, member: 15351”]All you need do is sit and chat with any priest or imam. If your discernment is poor enough to not see their lies then that is too bad.

As to Gnostic Christians, there was quite a number of different sects, almost as many sects as Christianity has fragmented into, and some likely did lie.

That may be irrelevant to a Gnostic Christian who has achieved even a small amount of Gnosis. We even debate against our own if the morality being taught is not sound. Most of us are perpetual seekers and esoteric ecumenists and are just as critical of Gnostic Christian beliefs as we are of all other religions. That is why Gnostic Christianity, to us, is the only worthy religious tradition. We are always ready and able to adopt the best possible thinking and morality.

What lie, specifically, are you referring to?
Let’s see if it was really a lie.

Regards
DL[/QUOTE]
It’s a lie if someone knows it to be untrue. To suggest that all these priests don’t believe what they preach is hilarious and lets be honest - you haven’t really sat and chatted with Imams or Priests and broke them down in some mentalist like fashion - you’ve read a load of stuff on the Internet (of which there is so much relating to these types of issues) and you have yourself convinced that some mystic religion is true.


#48

The idea of salvation, no doubt, is something incredibly easily abused as a means of maintaining power. It seems inevitable that there will have been many a crafty and divisive priest who’ll have fooled his congregation into depending on him for spiritual deliverance, as opposed to finding it where it already lies within oneself. It’s dishonest trickery, and if you ask me it’s profoundly unpleasant.

There is little doubt in my mind that this was the reason the early church had for the suppression of the Nag Hamadi scriptures, because they would undermine the authority of the church.

Salvation, in my opinion, as opposed to being some redemption from some place external, is a state of mind connected with the present moment and free from attachment. It is a mind that realizes it’s already saved and that the kingdom is already here.


#49

[QUOTE=“owainp, post: 2682493, member: 4544”]Applying your logic= That’s rich coming from a gnostic.

When did I say that? On the contrary, he died for all.

Ummm… Ever had your hands and feet pegged to a piece of wood with large iron nails? I can think of few methods of execution more painful than this.

I haven’t the foggiest what you’re talking about.

Still haven’t a clue what you mean by this. He knew that when he created us, there was a chance that we might decide not to follow him.

Idol worship? Pray do tell.

The name? [U][I][B]THE [/B][/I][/U]Name? You mean YHWH? Created by man? How so? Biblically you have no evidence, even historically you can’t point to a time where one thought to himself, “I think I’ll name my God YHWH.” My question is, how do you [I]know[/I] the name was created by man?

And you have failed to show [I]how[/I] it is idol worship.[/QUOTE]

If Jesus died for all then there is no need for a hell, is there?

That is not the usual dogma as it says that only a few will take the narrow road to heaven while the vast majority will take the wide road to hell.

“Still haven’t a clue what you mean by this. He knew that when he created us, there was a chance that we might decide not to follow him.”

Indeed and he planed our fall before even creating the potential for sin.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

If you think otherwise, tell us why God put Satan and or the tasking serpent right beside Eve while knowing that she could not resist his powers of deception flowing through Satan.

You might wonder before replying, why the Jews, who have first dibs on any interpretation of their myths, saw Eden as our place of elevation and not of a fall. Note that the Original Sin concept was added on later by Christians in their zeal to vilify the serpent cults and women.

“My question is, how do you [I]know[/I] the name was created by man?”

Because all the Gods are man made. Have a look at the ancient thinking before Christianity became literalist idol worshipers.

[URL]http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2[/URL]

Further.

[URL]http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html[/URL]

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, “The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it.”

Please listen as to what is said about literal reading.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, “God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning.”

" And you have failed to show [I]how[/I] it is idol worship."

If you cannot prove your God to be real, and you cannot, then all you believe in is some kind of facsimile and that is idol worship. Even putting belief in your WORD is idolizing the words of men.

Regards
DL


#50

[QUOTE=“owainp, post: 2682500, member: 4544”]@Greatest I am stop calling yourself a “Gnostic [I]Christian[/I]”. As in leave the “Christian” out, because clearly your beliefs are nothing like ours.[/QUOTE]

True. They are demonstrably more moral.
And in ancient days, instead of trying to change our belief with dialog and debate, the moment Christianity was bought by Constantine, you Christians went on a murdering and gospel burning spree.

A moral religion grows by example and good works. Yours grew from murder and the suspension of freedom of religion.

Regards
DL


#51

[QUOTE=“Ricky, post: 2682538, member: 2996”]lol if you think Africa wasn’t a shit-show before Christianity showed up, I’ve got news for you…
They’ve fucked babies because they think it can cure aids too. Let me know what holy book mentions that.

All I can say to the rest is that it seems like you grew up in a different time, with different priorities. From my perspective Christianity is all but dead, or on it’s last dying breaths. They lost no-fault divorce, they lost abortion, and they’ve just lost gay marriage. Focusing large amounts of emotional energy on them is, at this point, beating a dead horse.

On the other hand you have the most rapidly growing religion on earth, Islam, which has had basically no reformation whatsoever, and of whom over half of it’s adherents self-report in polls that they agree with the death penalty for apostasy, is making it’s way into Western countries and is on track to become the demographic majority in many European counties.[/QUOTE]

All true except that Christianity is still touting itself as the largest religious group on earth. I do agree that their days are numbered. Last time I looked, 2050 was estimated to be the time of the tipping point from belief to non-belief.

I think the West has just about had enough of Islam if the news from the E.U. are an indicator.

Their political right wings have been mobilizing and growing and Islam will have to conform or more countries will just ban them altogether as the trend seems to indicate.

Regards
DL


#52

[QUOTE=“De Dannan, post: 2682575, member: 1324”]It’s a lie if someone knows it to be untrue. To suggest that all these priests don’t believe what they preach is hilarious and lets be honest - you haven’t really sat and chatted with Imams or Priests and broke them down in some mentalist like fashion - you’ve read a load of stuff on the Internet (of which there is so much relating to these types of issues) and you have yourself convinced that some mystic religion is true.[/QUOTE]

Mystic is often applied in a way that has supernatural components.

If you did not mean it that way, as Gnostic Christianity has no supernatural components, other than in our myth which were created to put against the supernatural Christian myths, form for debate purposes.
then I admit to believing that our methods for seeking God are true, in the sense of useful.

The way most use the word true, I would not agree as no religion is the one true religion.

Regards
DL


#53

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682673, member: 15351”]All true except that Christianity is still touting itself as the largest religious group on earth. I do agree that their days are numbered. Last time I looked, 2050 was estimated to be the time of the tipping point from belief to non-belief.

I think the West has just about had enough of Islam if the news from the E.U. are an indicator.

Their political right wings have been mobilizing and growing and Islam will have to conform or more countries will just ban them altogether as the trend seems to indicate.

Regards
DL[/QUOTE]

The European establishment has responded to all attempts to stop immigration by strong-arming the public, and has even prompted a face-down with EU-members who refuse to take in “refugees” in the form of massive fines.

If the recent election of a man who called moderate Muslims “uncle toms” and who served as a lawyer to get extremists out of prison to the position of mayor in London is anything to go by, Europe is probably facing massive civil unrest within the next 30 years.


#54

[QUOTE=“Sir Tarquin of Wessex, post: 2682584, member: 3246”]The idea of salvation, no doubt, is something incredibly easily abused as a means of maintaining power. It seems inevitable that there will have been many a crafty and divisive priest who’ll have fooled his congregation into depending on him for spiritual deliverance, as opposed to finding it where it already lies within oneself. It’s dishonest trickery, and if you ask me it’s profoundly unpleasant.

There is little doubt in my mind that this was the reason the early church had for the suppression of the Nag Hamadi scriptures, because they would undermine the authority of the church.

Salvation, in my opinion, as opposed to being some redemption from some place external, is a state of mind connected with the present moment and free from attachment. It is a mind that realizes it’s already saved and that the kingdom is already here.[/QUOTE]

Indeed. That is pure Gnostic Christian thinking.

Regards
DL


#55

[QUOTE=“Ricky, post: 2682676, member: 2996”]The European establishment has responded to all attempts to stop immigration by strong-arming the public, and has even prompted a face-down with EU-members who refuse to take in “refugees” in the form of massive fines.

If the recent election of a man who called moderate Muslims “uncle toms” and who served as a lawyer to get extremists out of prison to the position of mayor in London is anything to go by, Europe is probably facing massive civil unrest within the next 30 years.[/QUOTE]

I agree. And I think that the various E.U countries will start to ship a lot of people back to their homelands as they will recognize that massive numbers of immigrants do not integrate or assimilate into host countries.

I am thinking of doing an O.P. that would include these two links but I will have to word it carefully to avoid the labels that will be thrown at me.

Regards
DL


#56

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682678, member: 15351”]I agree. And I think that the various E.U countries will start to ship a lot of people back to their homelands as they will recognize that massive numbers of immigrants do not integrate or assimilate into host countries.

I am thinking of doing an O.P. that would include these two links but I will have to word it carefully to avoid the labels that will be thrown at me.

Regards
DL[/QUOTE]

This site isn’t exactly a place where you need to worry about the labels being thrown at you.
As of only yesterday we acquired a new member who proclaimed a desire to kill race-mixers and degenerates. What matters most to this forum is that you can back up your claims with intelligent reasons, not which ideology you happen to adhere to.


#57

[QUOTE=“Ricky, post: 2682679, member: 2996”]This site isn’t exactly a place where you need to worry about the labels being thrown at you.
As of only yesterday we acquired a new member who proclaimed a desire to kill race-mixers and degenerates. What matters most to this forum is that you can back up your claims with intelligent reasons, not which ideology you happen to adhere to.[/QUOTE]

I dislike people throwing labels onto people regardless of the site but I hope you are correct for this one.

We should remember than when chatting with the religious, intelligence, logic and reason are ignore when those go against their faith.

They tend to throw faith at us when they have nothing intelligent, logical or reasonable to reply to a post with those qualities.

Regards
DL


#58

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2679417, member: 15351”]I spoke to this above but really, if you do not recognize the evil in rape, we have nothing to discuss. I am not interested in dirtying my mind with anything you might have to say.

It would be impossible for us to discus the morality or immorality of any law as you have satanic morals.

Please ignore me.

Regards
DL[/QUOTE]

Define to me what is evil? Because definitions of this term can and does change as humanity marches forward. Killing people because they were a different religion, or you suspected them of being an atheist or a witch was good before, and now is evil. Tell me how a thing that is completely relative have such an absolute definition to you? I do not consider rape evil either. Because doing so is foolish. And what I mean by that is, that right or wrong do not exist. You put the label on an action or reaction you see fit or well damn please. That is only valuable to you and you alone. Many people share your views, but understand that they mean nothing.


#59

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682778, member: 15351”]
We should remember than when chatting with the religious, intelligence, logic and reason are ignore when those go against their faith.

They tend to throw faith at us when they have nothing intelligent, logical or reasonable to reply to a post with those qualities.
[/QUOTE]

I’ve found that there is little difference between the faith of the religious and the faith of supposedly secular philosophical adherents. But at least the latter claim to adhere to the principle of rationalism, whereas the former often pride themselves in their rejection of it.


#60

[QUOTE=“Greatest I am, post: 2682675, member: 15351”]no religion is the one true religion.[/QUOTE]
So there is no truth to what they believe? Then why believe them, or [I]anything else[/I], for that matter?