Hello, I have been pondering the concept of white pride (and pride in race in general). I have tuned into some old speeches and such by figures like George Lincoln Rockwell, Adolf Hitler, Malcolm X and other figures who encouraged racial pride and separation (Adolf Hitler to a lesser extent, he was far more Nationalist than racist). What do you guys think about racial differences, does science support the ideas of ethnic and geographical differences in people, why is this topic such a taboo to so many people. Please keep it civil, however I do have a genuine interest in seeing what you guys think about this. Also please use sources if you address Scientific arguments.
Until humans actually become separate species from each other, I see no logic to racially based pride.
National/cultural pride I get more so, however, I believe excessive pride in any such things is most often foolish, because at the end of the day, we are all human, and all have similar capacities to a large extent.
Ethnic pride , or patriotism is something many people have, and arguably is a normal part of a person’s identity, usually harmless too, i,e someone enjoying elements of their heritage or learning about their ancestry,
“Racial” pride on the other hand, that is a wholly different beast, it is a belief in a total fiction, ethnic pride at least has a history of usually a local community of people who have a culture spanning typically centuries, racial has only existed for 3 centuries, and was the primary justifier of political and economic motives of the classical liberal era (such as slavery and colonialism). Today it’s vestiges plague our societal dynamics, especially in the USA where its politics goes on. Europe has not had a concept of being a united genetic group literally until the modern era (and even that is suspect).
It is taboo because humans are a very tribal animal (tribalism is a double edged sword, its how we organise to get shit done but it also causes so much unnecessary strife. Race was a corner stone of many a eugenic or genocidal ideologies and actions in history, its role politically was to justify it, and its horrendously flexible as well, again the irish were viewed as “white chimpanzees” when they got colonized and ethnically cleansed. Even now many of those who believe in hard categories of race have massive issues concisely defining it in science.
This is several questions in one.
There are genetic differences between various groups of humans, but the genetic variation of humans is stronger in between groups (as in 2 africans or europeans will be more divergent genetically between themselves respectively) then africans vs europeans or other “race”. These variations are not enough to justify taxonomical statements, which is why in almost all of the sciences they have been completely abandoned, and most groupings are usually used for historical accounts, Such as haplo groups for tracking ancestry of various human ethnicities. Humans have constantly being interbreeding with each other (as the haplo group maps prove, only a handful of ethnicities are even close to “purity” of any kind, such as the irish, who werent even considered ironically white for much of the time). A biochemist i know put it succinctly, for taxonomy and biologists to recognize hard categories like race , that we use to divide up other species into subspecies or groups, require dramatic variation of intra group fertility (basically different alleged races reproducing far less when together as a result of usually mechanical issues such as geographic isolation or sexual selection)
Now, moving on to ethnicity. Its recongised in the sciences and academia as a mix of culture, heritage and ancestry, and is a “thing” in the sense that its somewhat tangible, its worth a topic of its own.
Happlo group map of the world:
Humanity being this mish-mash and continuously mixing (MISCEGENATING SPECIES). ^ ,
This , what will soon be a legendary paper also came about very recently, and was a longitutenal study of economic status in the USA between various demographics, It also blows out of the water that the idea of economic disparities between ethnicities in the USA are down to race/iq (the edgy “inconvienient” truth")
, the summary of the paper this article discusses: http://www.equality-of-opportunity.org/assets/documents/race_summary.pdf
and the full paper ( the academically uninitiated may have trouble reading it) :
Racial pride makes no sense because race makes no sense. It is completely arbitrary and has no scientific or social backing. Ethnic or national pride are more understandable, as culture and nationality, though somewhat superficial, do have a concrete and logical backing. Race, on the other hand, was used by European colonists in order to justify exploitation of other groups of people. By dehumanizing them they could effectively negate criticism from their core citizen population.
“Racial” traits are mostly aesthetic and have few influences on intelligence, etc. People in warm, sunny regions have darker skin due to higher melanin content. Darker skin absorbs light better and neutralizes the effects of UV rays. It is why Scandinavians have lighter skin than Italians, and why Inuit (Eskimos) have lighter skin than Mayans. Other things like face or skull shape are minor and superficial and simply evolved out of chance.
As for the reasons “racial pride” is looked down upon, its due to it’s historical usage and association. The Nazis used it as an excuse to commit mass genocide (with plans to kill even more, especially Slavs). European colonists used it as an excuse to enslave and mistreat Africans, and later pretty much everyone else. Hell, the Spanish even used it as an excuse to treat other Europeans (i.e. the Dutch) horribly. Historically “racial pride” and “atrocity” have gone hand in hand pretty nicely.
Since ethnicity in many people’s eyes is tied to race (often seen as a more detailed version, i.e. racial group: white, ethnic group: Polish, etc.) it carries similar baggage. However, it is semi-tolerable, so long as it isn’t used to belittle other groups, since unlike race it does have a tangible backing.
Hope that answers your question well enough
About that NY times chart, I saw it about a week ago. Interesting stuff
Ethnicity in its truest form has nothing to do with race, but racialists love to lump themselves in with it to try to draw in people more comfortable with identiterianism. (edit)
An Ethnicity is literally a people who are group defined by their sentient history and kinship. A frenchman and an irishman share little of either, with exception to many irish people being anglophones and consequently using many french words indirectly (as rougly 30% of the english language is literally french).
Well I am quite glad we can all come to a consensus. I have just been reading on the subjects and wanted your view on the ideals. Usually if I probed this question on any other board I would be labeled a racists, but I am glad you guys actually answered.
Because until very recently the people probing this outside of science usually where racists, however this topic has been made mainstream, and so social suppression of it to keep far right forces down will no longer work.
That’s great news honestly. This should give the opportunity for the Right to finally have the ethnic Identitarian movements not be labeled racists.
It isnt, far right forces have a habit of scape goating very serious problems of society,
Almost all political identierian movements like this however in the relevant context are racist or are being used to justify racism. As i said racialist characters like to infiltrate these groups, even apolitical ones (such as asatru, a nordic folk/pagan religion which has had its core symbolism basically stolen by neo nazis, meaning regular practicers are often confused as them, the spiritual leadership of asatru (basically the main people behind its revival) are literally debating over whether or not its good to allow ethnic pride because of this, or to tolerate it as a consequence.
My own ethnicties symbolism has been robbed by nazis, the famous celtic cross , a symbol of the celtic christian era and piece of our culture that completely survived britain is known to much of the western world as the banner of racialists like storm front, ironic because the irish were victims of their politics.
these are grave times indeed,
I’m sorry to see great symbols being misused, however I still think some of the Right Wingers who were labeled as racists for having ethnic pride will finally be allowed into the mainstream and ethnic revitalization causes such as British, French, Austrian, German, and somewhat American Identitarian movements will be able to outnumber the actual racists, like the KKK and National Socialists. Race doesn’t mean ethnicity, and ethnicity is something to have pride in. The real problem for me is the erasing of ethnic identity, I think Frenchmen should remain French, and so on and so forth.