Scott Alexander's Rebuttal to Sexism Theory of Occupational Gender Difference


#41

The qualification of “girl” demonstrates that the concept of “gamer” is masculine coded anyway


#42

Actually I still am in school. I have seen no discrimination because you are a woman going into a Computer Science field.
Again I ask for some sort of evidence.
This is from an American point of view it may be different for schools in different countries.


#43

Reread my post… patriarchy isn’t just about jobs.

Like I said, you’re being deliberately obtuse. Asking for evidence on something that there is little to no evidence for because of the nature of the subject doesn’t make any sense. You’re not going to find a statistic for a complicated analysis of current day gender relations and roles, that’s like asking how many fluid ounces a brick is.

I am American.


#44

As long as “raising boys and girls the same way” doesn’t involve instating quotas and ideological witch-hunts in the professional world, I don’t really care outside of a general puzzlement over how exactly you ever accomplish your goal, since if biology plays a role then people will naturally gravitate to these “ancient patriarchal attitudes”. Again I question why this is of importance to you. Why is it important to you that men and women are raised with the same expectations pushed into the same social boxes? Why does this “suck” so much?

If it is true there are biological differences that result in group-wide proclivities, then you will ultimately degrade the experiences of more people by not applying separate norms. If 60% of X group likes red, and 60% of Y group likes green, then you are going to fulfill less people overall by forcing everyone to take the middle road of brown than simply creating two default paths.


#45

Ok. I was just talking about jobs since this is what this thread was about.

I am sorry, but if you cannot provide me tangible evidence that the patriarchy exists then I can not support it. If you can provide me tangible evidence then I will reevaluate my position.
Call me what you please.
The standard brick is about 4.5 lbs which is 72 ounces which is 72 fluid ounces. (Source)

Great! I should have said Conservative American.


#46

Ignoring ideas because they have no statistics or hard numbers behind them ignores a large amount of human knowledge, but suit yourself. Seems to me just a way to justify your beliefs without engaging them.


#47

Because most dedicated gamers are, and always will be, male teenagers.

It’s why online gaming has such a toxic, misogynistic atmosphere. What the fuck do you expect from thirsty teen boys?


#48

this is basically my point, yes


#49

My point is that noting that “gamer” is a masculine-coded word, or that aspects of the gaming industry has problems with sexism, isn’t particularly significant.


#50

This is the attitude that people are trying to address. Why are “thirsty teenage boys” excused from general courtesy? What has the “oh, boys will be boys!” attitude actually accomplished? Even if there’s some good reason (doubtful), why should it continue to be that way?


#51

They shouldn’t, which is precisely why parents have the responsibility to educate them in ethical behaviour and basic decency.

Pointing to the gaming industry and saying “Look sexism” is dumb. It would be like pointing to a fight in a high school and talking about how crime and disorder is out of hand.

What has the “oh, boys will be boys!” attitude actually accomplished?

Who has this attitude? I doubt many mothers, or fathers, would be happy with their child behaving in a sexist way. Teenagers are stupid, and not planning for such stupidity is also stupid.

why should it continue to be that way?

For the most part it will, whether it should or not. That’s the nature of adolescence. Most people look back at their teenage years and realise what a fucking prick they were.


#52

just lmao if you think political/social capital should be thrown at attempting to impose social standards on gamers. Ask the Christian fundies how well that went. Or look at how many teens got radicalized during ‘gamergate’. It’s like the Afghanistan of the culture wars.


#53

> not getting the point

if you think my post was all about the gaming industry then you didn’t get it. I specifically did not mention gaming in my actual post. Gaming isn’t the only space that teenage boys can behave this way, and that’s what I’m talking about, not just gaming, though I disagree that it is not productive to recognize the issue and attempt to tackle it.

My parents, for one. I can’t provide you with any statistics on that because I’m sure they don’t exist but there’s a reason that’s a stereotype.

Why do you think the nature of adolescence includes sexism? Why should we not try to change that?

I think political and social capital should be thrown at attempting to impose social standards on young teens, which includes gamers.

Gamergate is a joke and has to do with journalism, not people actually playing games. Their only relation to the topic (which I’m trying to broaden but alas) is the word ‘game’


#54

I know, it just happens to be the context of the discussion. . . My point is to do with what bandy was saying. Whether you’re talking about gaming or not doesn’t really bear relevance to my original comment.

though I disagree that it is not productive to recognize the issue and attempt to tackle it.

It’s productive to tackle the sexism of teenage boys, it’s unproductive to draw societal conclusions about an unrepresentative sample.

I can’t provide you with any statistics on that because I’m sure they don’t exist but there’s a reason that’s a stereotype.

“Boys will be boys” is different to the specific situation of teenage boys being explicitly sexist.

Why do you think the nature of adolescence includes sexism?

The nature of adolescence includes many things of a laughable persuasion. Not just sexism.


#55

and everyone knows how much teenagers love being told what to say and how to act by teachers, administrators, and other moral busybodies. I would again point you to the legacy of the Christian right throughout the 80’s and 90’s.

Whether or not it was a joke has nothing to do with how it affected the gamer sub-culture- how many people it drove away from the left and towards the arms of youtubers like Sargon of Akkad and other right-wing critics, and how many subsequently through them it introduced to the alt-right. There’s a reason e-celebs as big as PewDiePie bashes the “SJWs” and are more popular in the eyes of most their fans for doing so.


#56

It’s not drawing conclusions on society, it’s drawing conclusions about gamers, which I think is more fair.

Also, really the only activists that get involved with sexism in gaming are also gamers. I don’t find it to be a waste of the gaming community is attempting to change others in the community.

Not entirely, “boys will be boys” is usually used as justification for things that are subliminally sexist, whether it is sexist against women or other men.

… Okay… you’re dodging the question. So you agree that it includes sexism. I don’t care about other things, that’s not what I asked. I asked why.


#57

Neither do I, nor did I say it would be. If anything, my comment on the responsibility of parents would indicate that I think this would be a good thing.

Not entirely, “boys will be boys” is usually used as justification for things that are subliminally sexist, whether it is sexist against women or other men.

And if gender is at least partially genetic, boys will indeed ultimately be boys. And, fuck, girls will be girls. I would rather be a teenage boy than girl.

Like I say, failing to plan for the stupidity of adolescence is, in itself, stupid. It’s not an excuse so much as an explanation, and I think parents who use it as an excuse are failing in their duties.

So you agree that it includes sexism.

Yeah, just like it includes all manner of stupid things because teenagers.

I asked why.

Because teenagers are fucking stupid. There’s nothing inherent to sexism which makes it part of adolescence; equally “SJWism” is part of adolescence.


#58

Are you claiming that anti-bullying campaigns have not been largely successful? They have. And they all involve these things.

Sorry but this reeks of the standard r/the_donald shit of “CRAZY LIBERALISM DRIVING MILLIONS AWAY! CONSERVATISM AT AN ALL-TIME HIGH!”, aka I don’t believe you.

PewDiePie - the same guy who burned a pinata of Donald Trump? Okay…


#59

First off he said nothing about anti-bullying not working. Second teenagers rebel. (Source)

Generation Z which is the generation which started in 2000 is said to be the most Conservative since World War II. (Source)
The 29% of people who play video games (the largest age category) are under 18. (Source) That puts them in the range of Generation Z.
Conservatism in the United States has remained steady since 2001. (Source) I bet what we are seeing with teenagers in Generation Z moving to more conservative channels is foreshadowing what will come in the future.
I will bet that in the election after next when most of the people in Generation Z has come of age we will see a huge conservative boost in polls.


#60

anti-bullying campaigns were successful in tandem with every kid carrying around a smartphone with a camera recorder on it- i.e. technology created a viable enforcement mechanisms for administrators to take advantage of.

Just because someone on reddit says it doesn’t mean it’s bullshit.
You’re being willfully blind if you don’t recognize how divisive the social justice movement has been throughout the culture in every place it touches. Any survey of white men-the people generally targeted by SJWs- will show higher support for Trump than almost any other demographic.

I never claimed he was a conservative. He’s further to the right than he probably would have otherwise been, most likely because of being harassed by the left over his jokes.