Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?


#61

I agree. It might be a lot worse if the religion is one of the mainstream homophobic and misogynous type.

You say that Statism is tyrannical. All good governments are in the sense that if someone makes a victim of you, you would want the law applied in a tyrannical way as you would seek justice.

Tell us who can possibly be more tyrannical than the Gods, who even punish you for not thinking correctly?

Also, if you were in charge of a country, would you not tyrannically enforce all your countries laws or would you be lax in enforcing fraud laws the way many countries do today?

Regards
DL


#62

Authority =/= tyranny. Tyranny is when the government controls aspects of its citizens’ lives and ignores their rights and freedoms. If the state controls your thoughts then that is tyranny. Enforcing laws made to protect others (environmental, safety, economic, etc.) is not inherently tyrannical since those actions infringe on other’s rights, thus giving the government the right to intervene. But things which do not affect others and only affect the individual in question and/or any consenting partners (i.e. drug use) are not within the government’s business to regulate. Religion is a personal belief. So long as it doesn’t play a role in government and it remains a voluntary and private affair (and respects existing laws) then it should be allowed to exist.


#63

I agree that though cannot be legislated, but when that thinking is preached and leads to a homophobic and misogynous religion that makes second class citizens of so many, then it should be forced to stop doing so, as it was with religious organizations that refused to pay for birth control due to their religious beliefs.

Good that you see that tyranny has a place, even in a democracy. Not we actually live in those. We are all living in oligarchies.

I think that the government has a role to play in ridding the country of homophobes and misogynous thinking.

Regards
DL


#64

No tyranny has no place. It is the worst form of government. People aren’t children, they don’t need the government to babysit them. What you’re suggesting is punishing people for thought crimes. Tyranny has no place in the world, period


#65

Yet you would want the law tyrannically applied to the criminal who molested you. Right? Your damned right, as we all do.

As I stated above, thoughts cannot be legislated so stop throwing out that false dichotomy.

Regards
DL


#66

No because religious freedom is a huge right and anyway mainstream religions exploit people way more than fraudulent ones do. Also what’s to stop the government saying that a perfectly ordinary religion is fraudulent?


#67

Yes I completely agree, but we shouldn’t ban religions, we should publicly criticise, debate them and push for a more secular society.


#68

That’s not tyranny, its justice. Tyranny is unjust use of authority. Thus justice is inherently not tyrannical. If the government arrests those who peacefully criticize it that’s tyrannical. If police raid a house without a warrant or proper cause, that’s tyrannical. Arresting a molester for his crime and sentencing him to prison after a fair trial is not tyrannical, its justice. I don’t think you really understand the meaning of tyranny


#69

That freedom has turned into a right for religions to discriminate and denigrate gays and women with their homophobic and misogynous preaching. All based on lies.

Are there any women and gays in your family?

What about their freedom from religious persecution?

I agree, and why would you not want that fact to become public and official knowledge and knowledge?

They would have to show why they think so and any religion under discussion would be able to make their case in court.

You seem to not trust your governments honesty, and if you are an American, I do not blame you, but if you are not, you likely have some trut in your government.

Regards
DL


#70

I agree but those debates will mean little if the judges of the debates are not competent official.

Educating the public would do much to bring secularism up while driving nails in the religious coffins.

We have known for a long time that secular law is better than theistic laws yet the sheeple just keep on bleating along with their homophobic and misogynous garbage.

Regards
DL


#71

Semantics.

“a nation under cruel and oppressive government.”

At it’s worse, yes. As a tool of justice, no, as you want to be cruel and oppressive against those who have been cruel or oppressed you.

That simple fact is shown with how police are to serve and protect the victims and save them from cruelty and oppression from criminals.

Regards
DL


#72

You’re starting to sound like a totalist my pal. You seem to have the same problem that many others have on this forum, you think in the past. Other than the savages of Arabia and Africa, I cannot think of a place that allows women and gays to be killed or “oppressed” (whatever that means in modern context). The problem is you are thinking as if we are in a pre-secularized world, like prior to the 1980s; we aren’t, the arguments you bring up have been solved by secularization (with exception of the fraudster one). Now the fraudster one I have come to agree with, I do think the religious organization should be audited, however I don’t think they should be taxed simply because of the legal president it will cause could potentially allow a tyrannical government that outlaws political crimes. It is quite funny too, because if what you propose actually happen, the reaction from the religious organizations would be further radicalization and possibly even rebellion.


#73

Good. Then we could Inquisition and Jihad them and have them see if they like what they have been giving others.

If you think homophobia and misogyny are not in the West then think again by asking women and gays that you know.

It is getting better, no argument, but equality still has a long way to go.

Perhaps you will believe a young and modern scholar with the latest stats.

Thanks for recognizing that we have to do something about the open fraud that religions engage in.

Regards
DL


#74

facepalm


#75

Most women and gays I know are super liberal and always play victim. Good to know you’re a pinko now.


#76

Thanks for showing your intelligence level.

Only the really stupid will not recognize that gays and women are religions longest running victims.

Regards
DL


#77

oof, got me good pal.


#78

Apologies. Sometimes the truth hurts.

Regards
DL


#79

Religion isn’t the core of the problem, its ideological dogmatism. Communism, for instance, has killed a similar proportion of people as religions have historically (crimes of Stalinist Russia, Pol Pot, Maoist China, etc.). Pointing the finger at religious dogmatism alone doesn’t actually solve anything.


#80

I partially agree.

Until just recently, historically speaking, there was no real separation of church and state, so all share the war blame.

The point I was accentuating is that the vast majority associated themselves more with their religion and God than their state, while maintaining no separation of the two.

Those are the stats.

Those aside, recognizing that today, like in the Netherlands, where 95% label themselves Christian, while only 4% go to a church even once a year and if that hypocrisy to me is a sampling of what people were doing in the past, then you might have a larger point than I think, but you cannot ever prove it.

All I have are stats that I know are false to some extent, but you do not even have that.

I am a religionist, a Gnostic Christian, and would love to blame the secular for everything evil, but I cannot do so.

Regards
DL