Should we put shame on us all? We burden our children


#21

I think we do from the way the activists have been presenting things but they are hitting a wall of political resistance that refuses to do more thanks to lack of political will and the greed of our politicians for votes and oligarchs for profits regardless of environmental damage and the debts being passed up to our next generation.

We just collectively do not care enough and that is the aspect that we have to bring to the fore.

Regards
DL


#22

I’m 21. I was thinking of passing down shame as a skill to children. If shame decreases polarity and shares love (somehow), then the first thing I think of is how we can get children to experience this connection through shame.

One thing that comes to mind is letting children do mistakes that you clearly advise against, and to pull out that shame in not listening to mature advice. Once that trust of information is built up and they begin to really value what you have to say about stuff, you can begin talking about the environmental, social, and economic repercussions to the stuff they do and others do.

What I’d like to see is shame well integrated by a population so well that the corporations experience it, and the corporations become less polarized from the masses. Something I still need clarification for how it works.


#23

There is no logic to the argument that I am reprehensible for having children, the black and white moralist idea that pain is bad and only negative is an outdated concept specifically for humans who have learned to learn.


#24

Hey, just because they don’t exist in the same vacuum doesn’t mean they couldn’t.


#25

There is no reason for them to, I am not saying just that that don’t I am also saying they shouldn’t.


#26

Well, I’m not convinced.

Personally, I think it is morally reprehensible to reproduce more than once. If you want more children, adopt. And who’s saying that all pain is bad? I think it ought to be common knowledge by now that black implies white.


#27

Then don’t change and reproduce once, the ideals you put forth will be extinguished in three or so generations.


#28

I think we should stop reproducing; moreover, I feel that too many kids are being birthed into figurative prison cells due to all the calamity in the world, presently.


#29

Are you a nihilist? I believe the best ideas win; there just needs to be a few to carry the spark once in a while. I hope they get extinguished by better ideals! Wouldn’t that be awesome?

I’d like to talk more about the relationship between morals and logic. Is there a thread about it?


#30

The better ideals exits, you’re just unwilling to create the space needed for them to flourish mentally; once you are able to create the ideals then you can enact them. However the idea that we should keep population low, be guilty for life, hold yourself back due to a suicidal ideal of self sacrifice doesn’t mean we should and these ideas will be extinguished with the sands of time. I think we can use this thread to talk about morals and logic.


#31

I’m not saying my ideals are the best. And idk, I’d like to hear it out about how guilt is anti-polarization and can spread love. And I don’t think the point is to free up burdens for our children, just that we shouldn’t be burdening them to have to put out a planet that’s been on fire since before they were born. We should shame ourselves for going in this direction and realize that something can be done now. The shame can be a motivator to help the planet and be critical of society. Where exactly is your fundamental disagreement?


#32

I don’t think it’s as arbitrary as that. Imagine if there was a child who faced zero natural challenges, would you not agree that as a parent concerned for their adolescent development, the parent should set up something challenging for the kid to work through? If somebody grows up in life not being challenged, they’ll just ignore or drop anything that becomes challenging later on.


#33

I see nothing to be ashamed of. The only thing we did wrong was feel shame. If peace and love is an outcome of shame, then I will gladly spit on the grave of peace and love. Life isn’t meant to be peaceful, fun, or easy for anyone; life is a struggle, and those small things, your mother’s voice calling you, the memories of your old friends, the new friends you will make on this long and arduous journey, that is what makes happiness, not peace and love. I’d shame my child if he had the lack of foresight to not allow his son to struggle or fail, no one learns in peace, no improvement is had with love.


#34

So you’re saying that what you value most in life is its struggle. Are you admitting that the system is terrible but are so masochistic about it that it just adds to life’s value? I mean, would you really fight to keep people from improving society?

And you know what? I’d really like to hear from OP how shame is supposed to spread love and decrease polarization. I feel like we’re not really having a conversation around that until OP is less sparing on that connection.

What is improvement for, then? It sounds like there’s no improvement where it’s not needed, to me. So you’d rather go the course of an incomplete system that needs constant improvements than a complete system where improvements are not necessary. What is your obsession with this constant state of improvement? Do you really see a projection to an ultimately better society once this model completes? I follow the Marxist notion that communism is inevitable under capitalism, and neither model am I too fond of.

I really don’t see how learning doesn’t occur in peace. Learning is just a product of thought.


#35

Hey, I’m all for the perspective that black implies white, but what I’m gonna say is that white implies black.

Do you really expect people to have it together in a less struggling society? I think as you see an increase in societal stability, you will see an increase in personal instability. In our unstable society, people have to stabilize themselves beyond their material conditions. In a stable society, people become more dependent on the system (as it becomes an extension of themselves, like any technology (a state/community is like technology to me)) and are less stressed to achieve full individuality. I’d predict that the majority of people would find a middle course existence between dependency on the system and full individuality despite the system. People like you would wind up on top as you find much value added to your life through struggle. My ideal system would be designed to process people much more smoothly into full independence.

You just can’t go around saying that everyone should value life the same as you do and that’s why nothing has to change and there’s nothing to be ashamed of. Do you see how arbitrary that sounds?

For 75% of society, you cannot get them to do anything unless you motivate them to get away from the stress of not doing it. The thing about stress is that you can ignore it based on how pervasive it is to your immediate experience. You cannot get people to care about the environment through stressing the situation. Shame, however, is not so easily ignored. You carry shame in everything you think and behave around that shame. If we can get people to be ashamed of our treatment of the planet and life on Earth, we can begin to see real movement towards sustainability and improvements in environmentally helpful technologies.

The standard of living has been in decline for the better part of a century now. Something’s gotta change, dude.


#36

You want to make this about your child and his development while ignoring that it is your development that s being judged.

If your development says that you should pass on your debt and your destruction of his environment to your children, while not knowing of the real harm you pass down, then you are not much of a father.

Regards
DL


#37

I value what the struggle brings, which is progress and self improvement. There is no system, I only talk about nature and man’s development through its struggle against nature. I see no improvement from shame, if that is what you are making reference to, shame brings self destruction, a pessimistic ideology of self destruction is what shame is.

Improvement is had to become loved or to have peace, on an individual scale that is. Why would I want to have a system that is perfect, there is no challenge, there is nothing to learn, there is just that; it sounds boring to be honest. My obsession with constant improvement is that if we are not improving, we are doing nothing and nothing brings about the downfall of societies. I don’t follow the Marxist notion of anything, because it has a defined end, Communism (which is a whole other bag of trash right there), where in reality there is no such thing as a static end or start, there is only improvement, and if we choose not to improve, someone else will. Why learn in peace, peace is perfect and why would you need to have anything new or different when you have peace. Look at major technological advancements, brass, steel, nuclear energy, these things weren’t made for peace, they were made in war and for war; which is why I support the Fascist notion that peace is impossible and generally a bad idea.


#38

I think of shame as little different from stress. Shame is a motivator for changing behavior, while stress is a motivator for accomplishing tasks. You’ll have to be more clear on how shame is a pessimistic ideology that brings self destruction. Is it pessimistic in the sense that it assumes that people are not going to accomplish much in the way of systemic change without it?

People bored in a perfect society are free to make improvements. I really don’t see your opposition here. Do you really need the system to provide inherent challenges? Without the copious amount of challenges provided by the system, people would be free to pursue real challenges. Such as science, spiritualism, academia, and content creation. Most of the greatest artists in history would have never reached their potential if it weren’t for circumstances that released them from the burdens of the system of their times.

I don’t think improvement would end under a perfect system. People would be free to pursue real challenges rather than artificial and unnatural challenges faced in the current economy. Do you know how many Aristotles are held back from greatness because they have to buckle down into wage slavery?

Well, communism isn’t the stated goal of Marxism. Communism is just the central-governance stage meant to stabilize a socialist state into a freely associated economy where the workers own the means of production. What happens after central governance under communism looks much more like anarchy than what most consider to be communism. The communist state is always meant to deconstruct itself as society gains its own independence.

I’d argue that there’s always change no matter what system you’re operating in. Saying that change is always going to be an improvement is too optimistic for reality. And you recognize that there’s always going to be people who seek improvement under whichever system, so once again, where is your disagreement?

Because people are curious creatures and cannot help but learn. Learning is one of the essential meanings to life. I assure you there’s going to be plenty of people actively learning no matter the system they are under.

Yes good things come out of bad, but where do we draw the line and say we’ve reached far enough to have a healthy civilization beyond war? We’ve reached a stage where the major advancements are being lead by people not motivated by war, but the advancement of knowledge and species itself? Sure many of them have to appeal to war interests to get the funding for research, but that goes beyond the point. It’s been like this for a while now.

I’m going to have to hear the details on your connection between war-driven advancements and the impossibility of peace. And I don’t recall anyone claiming that peace is to be obtained through shame, or anything to do with accomplishing peace for that matter. I think war can be healthy if the war-interests are in check, which they aren’t.


#39

Did you even read my other posts on this thread? You said shame on us all, and I don’t exclude children from “us”. Do you really expect shame to spread effectively in zero generation’s time? You made a lot of sense in the OP, but there wasn’t much practicality to it. Like, how exactly does shame decrease polarity and increase love? You are yet to be clear on that point. At this point, I feel like I have put more thought into what shame actually does than you. How do you spread shame? Through guilt or what?


#40

You share shame by activating it in others.

I did agree that even though I wrote the O.P. while only thinking of adults, that children who have reached the age of reason should also feel shame and hopefully pass it to their parents.

Shame as well as other emotions can spread like wildfire.

Look at the last school shooting. Tons of emotion was generated is a short amount of time. It did not generate enough shame though to move legislators who were busy counting votes and continued to suck the majority tit.

As to my reading most of what you put, no. I have been quite busy.

Regards
DL