Taking down monuments?


#21

yes, but last time I checked there weren’t any of Hitler, Mussolini, Hirohito, or any other axis figures

no shit, but you’re kidding yourself if you believe they’d want statues of the same guys who wanted them dead
there’s a big difference between forgiveness and celebration


most people have the decency to acknowledge the sins of their fathers because they understand they aren’t guilty of them

statues that reinforce and normalize the whole ‘the south will rise again’ behavior

where’d you get all the hay for that strawman?

i live in virginia, not exactly heart of the south area, but when i make this same argument whenever the topic rears its ugly head, and its rare that i ever hear any dissent
though our college being used as barracks and nearly burned down as a result might not help with that
the kind of people who take the removal of confederate monuments personally and would ‘hate me’ over it are not the kind of people im looking for the approval of anyway


#22

Generally considered bloodthirsty tyrants by their own people.
A very different dynamic and history exists with the Confederacy.

Yeah. Of course didn’t put up the statues.
They also didn’t go on a moral crusade, or really care at all, when Southerners decided to put up the statues.

You need to learn to distinguish the affects of what you’re saying on the recipients from it’s supposed correctness. One family doesn’t represent and entire people, and a flag on a state capitol building isn’t the same as taking down the monuments.

but calling them traitors and telling them they can’t have those monuments doesn’t?
come on

are you serious?

[quote=“Chucklenuts, post:21, topic:112344”]
i live in virginia, not exactly heart of the south area, but when i make this same argument whenever the topic rears its ugly head, and its rare that i ever hear any dissent[/quote]

Why would anyone intelligent publicly state the counterargument when there is little to gain and their entire reputation is on the line? Few people IRL know what I think about politics outside of my friend group and family. I’ve spend my entire life smiling and nodding in public to people who say the stupidest shit, but to which the counterargument would have me considered persona non grata in the culture I live in. I wouldn’t mistake silence for agreement.

If you’re not looking to convince anyone, and in fact don’t care about the fact your actively antagonizing them, then why are you saying anything in the first place? Spite? Boredom?


#23

and for the record, im only talking about public monuments like this eyesore in richmond that siphons taxpayer money through constant repairs and maintenance


#24

Thats actually a rather flattering picture…


#25

>eyesore
you can’t even tell it’s confederate without getting close up, and it looks just as nice as every other American monument you can find, like the ones that cover DC.


#26

the closer you look, the worse it gets, much like the civil war itself
the area behind the fence ends up as a litter receptacle since no one can get to the trash that gets stuck there


#27

If you Goys want an eyesore look at this one


#28

oh no the perfectly fine monument that is at the center of an intersection doesn’t look perfect if you go look at it from five feet away, and gets trash stuck behind it.

this is just desperate.


#29

who is that supposed to be?


#30

Rosa (((Luxemberg)))


#31

because the statues that emphasize them as heroic figures and downplay their role in the fight against slavery have no play in that

given even Lee stoutly opposed the raising of said monuments, i would think it fair to assume they would also

meanwhile you act like you speak for entire populations of people

did i strike a nerve calling them traitors?
they can certainly have their statues, thats literally how they’re ‘disposed’ of; at auction
you don’t have to go full post-ussr on them and dismantle them

are you? at least give me a cup of water to wash down all those words you’re trying to put in my mouth

ding ding ding, we have a winner

shockingly enough its hard to advocate for something you know is wrong

you know you can disagree with people without hating them for it?
the kind of people who would straight up hate me just for opposing confederate monuments are probably not the kind of people convinced with debate

why do you act like every joke not even directed at you is a personal affront
its probably just because you don’t like me, but its really cringey


#32


#33

since it was those populations that put up those monuments in the first place and who keep them up… yeah.

Three of my grandparent’s are from Northern families, so not really. I’ve just spent the last five years seeing people get alienated and drift to the alt-right due to the kind of rhetoric you’re using.

You’re the one that called them “literal traitors”.

No, it’s hard to advocate for something when the internet exists and your entire career can be ruined from arguing for it.

What does disagreeing with confederate statues have to do with directly calling someone’s ancestors traitors, and calling them retarded? Almost everything about your approach to this discussion is antagonistic- it’s not surprising that you think the people not convinced when you debate them are just unreachable.

lmfao how was that a joke? You pointed out a monument you said was “an eyesore” and then defended your point when questioned by someone else. Come on dude, this is pathetic.


#34

this is privately owned by a member of the KKK, and on private property


#35

that number gets smaller every year

>properly using the definition of a word is bad
lol k

yes, because they are, but im not saying to be ashamed, acknowledgement isn’t the same as being ashamed
you might not know this, so it may come as a shock, but the founding fathers were also traitors, but me and many others hold them pretty highly

so you’re saying a majority of people understand it’s wrong then

defending confederate monuments by saying they’re historically significant is retarded
granted i could have used softer language but that doesn’t change the fact its straight up incorrect

i guess that answers that question

if you take everything so seriously, you may actually be mentally deficient
thankfully i know its just you attempting to one up me

doesn’t stop it from being ugly
the ugly rosa statue is privately owned too, her ‘official’ tributes are the Rosa-Luxemburg-Platz and this thing


#36

You say you are fighting for liberty. Yes you are fighting for liberty: liberty to keep four millions of your fellow-beings in ignorance and degradation;–liberty to separate parents and children, husband and wife, brother and sister;–liberty to steal the products of their labor, exacted with many a cruel lash and bitter tear;–liberty to seduce their wives and daughters, and to sell your own children into bondage;–liberty to kill these children with impunity, when the murder cannot be proven by one of pure white blood. This is the kind of liberty–the liberty to do wrong–which Satan, Chief of the fallen Angels, was contending for when he was cast into Hell.

  • David Hunter to Jefferson Davis

Mine as well. Doesn’t mean their actions are justified.


#37

oh, and

The greatest efforts made by the defeated insurgents since the close of the war have been to promulgate the idea that the cause of liberty, justice, humanity, equality, and all the calendar of the virtues of freedom, suffered violence and wrong when the effort for southern independence failed. This is, of course, intended as a species of political cant, whereby the crime of treason might be covered with a counterfeit varnish of patriotism, so that the precipitators of the rebellion might go down in history hand in hand with the defenders of the government, thus wiping out with their own hands their own stains; a species of self-forgiveness amazing in its effrontery, when it is considered that life and property—justly forfeited by the laws of the country, of war, and of nations, through the magnanimity of the government and people—was not exacted from them.

-George Henry Thomas, November 1868

they certainly did care


#38

this is irrelevant to my point.
also those outside of the ‘Southerners’ we’re discussing specifically can also vote.

>ignoring the point

>be a bunch of slave-holders who write an entire document about the just cause of revolt and non-binding nature of their relation to the king
>specify treason as the highest crime of the land and worthy of death
>get unironically called “traitors” by person who says they hold them in high regard

wew lad
most of the time when you support someone you call them “rebels”, whereas the enemy calls them “traitors”.

only insofar as people fighting segregation pre-1960’s were wrong because of the mass persecution that targeted them.

You’re an arrogant fool if you think the line between monument and memorial is that cut and dry, and my argument has not been about the technical correctness of having put these monuments up, but rather about the actual gain and loss from forcing them down.

find one other user who agrees that this-

-was obviously a joke post

lmfao the projection


#39

what is the point exactly?
people will join a fringe political movement because they don’t like the definition of words?

most of the time when you have a decent argument you don’t nitpick about words.
the founding fathers and confederacy were both admittedly treasonous, but both stated that they were justified in it as a result of their grievances with their governance.
i don’t know why i bother to clarify, because it won’t stop you from trying to use it like im some sort of neo-tory.

and eventually we reached the point to where it’s the opposite, so clearly they weren’t so tight lipped.

your argument is the same lost cause horse hockey that modern historians have shot down pretty soundly

that wasn’t even the correct post
are you going senile

so you do take everything seriously then?


#40

What you do actively alienates people towards the republican party despite it not being in their economic interest.

>says the guy drawing the line between “monuments” and “memorials”

again, rebellion and treason are very different sides of the same coin. Nobody calls themselves a traitor. They are called traitors.

Yes, times changed. That has nothing to do with what I just said.

What about “I am not arguing about the technical correctness of having put these arguments up” didn’t you get? Rural cultural alienation is a very real phenomena and you’re living under a presidential administration partially as a result of it.

That’s the post I replied to and referenced this entire time.
But please, do point out what you think I was replying to.