You seem to not get his central point of personal moral discipline and that without underlying moral values then the law will come to reflect that. Imagine if enough people became a moral nihilist after the death of god and therefore accepted others lives of being of no value or meaning.
All the virtue signaling taboos have mostly skyrocketed these days in areas that have fallen away from established moral values. (What is virtue?) The disintegration of even the family due to lacking values has caused intergenerational poverty. In the US entire demographics are worse off economically than they were when they were literally suppressed by government. [quote=“Chrome, post:32, topic:112799”]
It seems that it either is or isn’t. No deeper meaning to that simple question.[quote=“Chrome, post:32, topic:112799”]
society tells them what is and is not right.
Society doesn’t really exist anymore due to multiculturalism, if it ever existed. Communities in conflict are what exist and we go with whatever group fits our individual moral awareness. Unless we take knee jerk moral positions without any thought on the underlying basis of the matter.
The largest community coalition then enforces or deforces their will upon the others in politics depending on how authoritarian their political worldview is.
See I’ve lived in four different areas of one country where people on average acted differently toward one another and seemed to simply reflect the individual values of the majority depending on how closely they adhered to them.
But even different neighborhoods have different moral values according to the individuals within the culture. In one your life is of no value and you will be robbed and murdered if you look wrong like in Baltimore, there’s little social mobility there or true community as there’s an obvious lack of values. In another place like Utah people will on average go out of their way to help out strangers as they view it as a moral duty. So much so that it has the highest social mobility in The United States and little crime or unemployment.
And no I’m not saying there is no such thing as pressure and that people conform in practice. But not in principle…
If something has no real moral value then to argue value is backtracking and logically inconsistent. Broken down by simply asking why.
Example of devils advocate: Murdering a 9 month old human the moment they come out of the womb is wrong. Why? Because they have value? Why? Because they have rights? Why? There’s no basis of human rights at all once you throw out the precepts of natural law in western civilization or any for that matter. [quote=“Chrome, post:32, topic:112799”]
If anything you failed to understand his statement because it has absolute nothing to do with history but a philosophical fact. Tell me does evil terrorism not cause governments to take away liberty in the name of security? When societies become immoral the government steps in but the government is not some sort of all good God, quite the opposite on average.
For example from an economic perspective the entire war on drugs has only served to protect the drug cartels.[quote=“Chrome, post:32, topic:112799”]
“Gentlemanly” behavior didn’t restrain men from acting like shit, it just masked it up by acting like it was the social norm.
Not in my faith. You seem to not understand what being an actual gentlemen is, which was denigrated by the frat social norm that grew in youth. No one even drinks at lds colleges. [quote=“Chrome, post:32, topic:112799”]
Why do you think that the people who describe themselves as “gentlemen” are often the most sexually frustrated and misogynistic?
I don’t see where you are pulling that from. You are making an unpacked assumption of hypocrisy. For one describing yourself as a gentlemen doesn’t make you one. Doesn’t change the point of the archetype.[quote=“Chrome, post:32, topic:112799”]
And they never will. Because laws are a reflection of the customs and values of the times. Laws do not replace morality, laws reinforce morality.
Exactly so you understand his and my point the secular law at the end of day only have meaning because of moral values. And I would put customs as being moreso cultural sometimes associated with religion but mainly historical tribalist rituals.[quote=“Chrome, post:32, topic:112799”]
Except we’ve always relied on laws and codes bestowed upon us from some higher power to regulate behavior
The Law is not the place to look for moral guidance or to regulate our behavior. We should be a good person no matter what the law is. Just following orders is not a valid moral response. The government can’t make people love each other, in fact quite the opposite occurs when there is forced artificial association.
Why do you assume I believe in such a concept? I believe we are born with a potential for evil not as evil. Did you know most with Down syndrome literally love just about everyone they meet, they can’t help it as it’s biologically. And by love I mean not in a sexual manner.
What it comes down to is I don’t look to society or the government to shape my moral values because both are not inherently moral. More so the morality of a mob and more often than not mobs don’t spontaneously form and march around helping everyone. As I mentioned my family came from Baltimore and still have connections there. Mobs formed and burned down an entire part of the city, even the bloods and crips gangs joined together to rampage. The mayor stood by and did nothing saying she was giving them room to destroy until the governor had had enough and sent in national guard that had to clear every street.
I think societies true colors are shown when the government isn’t enforcing behavior. If society is defined by herd behavior then if a majority of the individuals are immoral then even the good individuals can be swayed to commit immoral acts when pressured.
If the majority of the society is made up of good moral individuals then even the immoral individuals can be swayed to commit moral acts when pressured. The underlying point is defending and promote values in society is far more effective and efficient than attempting to enforce them upon people.